Daniel Johnson Jason Gile, Executive Director for Seminary Now, joins Dan Hummel for a discussion on the online seminary platform Seminary Now and the value of online education.
Learn about Jason Gile & Seminary Now
With Faith in Mind is supported by the Steven & Laurel Brown Foundation, produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin, and hosted by Dan Hummel & John Terrill. Jesse Koopman is the executive producer and editor.
Please reach out to us with comments or questions at podcast@slbrownfoundation.org. We’d love to hear from you.
Transcript
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Hello and welcome to With Faith in Mind.
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I'm Dan Hummel, today's host
and the director of university engagement
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at Upper House.
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This episode is part of our series
on Christian education at the Crossroads,
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and we're welcoming
Jason Gile to the podcast.
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Hi, Jason.
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Dan, good to be with you.
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Jason Gale is at Northern Seminary
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and he is the chief innovation officer
there.
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He's also the executive director
of the streaming video platform Seminary.
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Now, which is what
we're going to talk to Jason about today.
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Just a couple more facts about Jason
before we jump into the conversation.
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Jason has a Ph.D.
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in Old Testament studies
from Wheaton College and an MBA
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in Hebrew Bible and Hebrew studies
from our own UW Madison.
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And we were just talking before
coming on air about a few of the people
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we both know here, here in Madison.
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And Jason has also published
on Old Testament studies
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in a variety of venues,
and he teaches courses on Hebrew Bible
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and Biblical Theology of Mission
and much more at Northern Seminary.
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So, Jason, we're here to talk to you
about seminary now
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and as a sort of digital learning
platform,
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I wondered if you could just
before we jump into the questions,
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give us a sense of your own
personal experience with digital learning.
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Is this a type of learning
that you've engaged with
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in your own in your own education,
or is it something you're coming to
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sort of fresh as a teacher?
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Mm hmm.
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Yeah. Good question.
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I think I came at it
first as an administrator.
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Really?
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I was doing academic administration
thinking about seminary education
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and delivery models
and the future of seminary.
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So that's really where it started.
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But before seminary.
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Now, I did lead the implementation
of a livestreaming
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program at Northern Seminary.
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So we called it Northern Live,
and it was basically
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like a smart classroom
that that really was doing.
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Yes, Zoom, but also the integration
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of distance students
with a live classroom, even pre-COVID.
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Right.
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So that was my first foray
into digital education.
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Seminary now came along
really as a first as an idea.
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And I think what we were addressing was
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how do we reach more people?
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Seminaries traditionally reach
a very small group of people,
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and I'm a believer in seminary education
and degree programs
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and the importance of that.
But the reality is, of course, that
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the vast majority of
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church leaders and Christian laypeople
are not going to go to seminary.
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So we wanted to develop something
that really could reach the masses
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in a way
that a streaming video platform could.
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So you're an Old Testament
scholar by training.
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So how did you find yourself sort of in
conversations where you were talking
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about sort of a pretty technical
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I assume there's a lot of technical
and digital aspects
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to launching something like seminary now.
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Was that an easy transition for you?
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Do you have sort of a background in that
or is that something you came to
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as an administrator?
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Not a formal background.
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I think I just found my way as I went.
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I mean, I think I have a little bit
of a bent towards
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I mean, obviously,
I am a sort of a digital native
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in terms of my age,
so that I had that going for me
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and maybe have a little bit
of an entrepreneurial, innovative spirit.
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But no,
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definitely not any formal education
or formal training in those areas.
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So when you gave us
a little of the background of seminary,
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now if you were just talking to someone
who had no idea what seminary now was,
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what's the sort of elevator
pitch for the platform?
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Mm hmm. Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It is a streaming video platform
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that makes seminary type
content accessible to the masses.
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So that I mean, that's the first thing
I want to say
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in terms of some comparison points
or reference points.
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People are familiar with Masterclass,
some master classes in the secular space.
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These are often celebrity
type persons or these persons
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who are well known in their field
doing these shorts.
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Obviously noncredit
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video courses, it's high production
value, it's streaming video.
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So that's really
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probably the best comparison point to
what we're doing in the theological space.
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So it's the
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same model streaming video, it's
subscription based, it's all access.
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So in that sense it's similar to Netflix
or other sorts of streaming services.
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Now of course, we're in the educational
space, not the entertainment space,
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but that's really
the purpose is at a very affordable rate
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and therefore accessible to the masses,
providing
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really good content for people
who wouldn't be able to go to seminary.
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But with seminary
now what at the sort of highest level,
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what are you hoping to accomplish, though?
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You're talking about making seminary
education available to the masses.
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What's the you know, what's the bigger
goal of making that education available?
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What do you hope changes either
in the church or in individual people?
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Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
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Yeah, there's several.
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I think the primary purpose in the primary
mission
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are to educate church leaders.
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Let's just get into audience a bit.
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So I would say that
our primary audience is church leaders,
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but there are secondary audiences as well.
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We created it for emerging church
leaders, people
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that might not, for a variety of reasons,
be able to go into seminary,
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but a couple of secondary audiences
would be once we created it,
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churches came to us and said, Well,
we want to use it for small groups too.
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We want to use it for discipleship in
adult education and those sorts of things.
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And so we've provided ways
and created ways for them to do that.
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Other secondary audiences
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would include, for example,
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just educated laypeople.
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This dovetails actually a little bit
with the work that you do
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and potentially your audience,
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which is to say there are lots of people
who want something more
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than what they might get in your average
Sunday school class, right?
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And so they're not necessarily on
they're not necessarily church leaders
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in the in the formal sense.
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They may
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be elders or deacons in their church
potentially.
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Sometimes.
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This is also a case of imagine people
in a university context
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who are academics
and they are have a Ph.D.
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in biology or sociology or whatever it is,
and they go to church
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and they're also wanting to connect
with their faith in a deeper way
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than what they might get on Sunday Now,
and that isn't to replace
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church or local churches
and what's happening on Sunday,
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because because actually
that's a core part of the Christian faith.
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But it is something on a deeper level
that they can go into that
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they might resonate with more
because they appreciate that higher level
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in the academic, because that's
what they do in their career.
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So there is those are the types of
secondary audiences that we're reaching.
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It's not just church leaders,
but of a wide
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variety of other people
who are interested in the content as well.
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So just to round out our understanding
of what seminary
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now is, what are the actual types
of courses that are offered
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and types of faculty
or teachers that offer the courses?
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Mm hmm.
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Yeah, it's a wide spectrum of courses.
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I mean, it's sort of mirrors
what the breadth of the seminary
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curriculum in terms of topics,
although we do
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a bit more than is traditionally
in the seminary curriculum.
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So for example, obviously we do Bible
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and theology and church history
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and ministry skills formation.
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Those are sort of the core areas of a
of a seminary curriculum.
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So we cover all of those.
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I would say also that in the category
of contemporary issues, we're able
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to do a bit more than what you might
typically get in a seminary curriculum.
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That could be social issues, it could be
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the kinds of issues
that the church is facing and church
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leaders are struggling to to know
how to handle and deal with and culture
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and a variety of things like that.
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So that's really the spectrum on the
in terms of the voices of the teachers
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we're drawing really
from leading professors and authors.
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Some of those
come from partner seminaries and
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from Northern seminary and other partner
seminaries.
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Others are publishers.
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We have a relationship or a partnership
with InterVarsity Press,
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and so a lot of the teachers
come from IVP authors as well.
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One thing that is on your website is
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talking about the diversity of voices
required
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to help church leaders
meet the demands of ministry today.
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Talk a little bit about that commitment to
and then then you you named later
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on in that same paragraph.
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Neglected contributions of women
and persons of color.
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How does that fit into the sort of broader
seminary now mission?
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Yeah.
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Well,
number one, it's a core value of ours.
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It's part of our DNA in terms of the
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the justification or the rationale of the
theology behind that.
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I mean, we believe that
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different people
have a variety of perspectives
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that we that we need to learn from.
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I think that that's really the core of it.
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And certainly there have been
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persons of color and women
who have been historically
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disadvantaged or their voice
not platformed
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in the way that it should have
their voices heard by other people.
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So we want to step into that
and say we value all of those voices
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and we think that everybody should be
learning from those voices as well.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, that makes sense in terms of if a
student were to take a seminary now class,
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do they do they take tests?
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Do they have to buy books and other stuff,
or is it sort of
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is it all on the website or how do you
how do students engage with it?
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Mm hmm.
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Yeah.
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So the primary thing is the video content.
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So we create these high production videos.
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We do have also for each course
a comprehension quiz
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and a learning workbook.
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So there's a PDF workbook with questions
and you can complete that as you
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watch the videos and then thereafter
you can do the comprehension quiz.
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Now I will say the different people decide
to do different components of that.
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So there are some people who just want to
watch the videos for personal enrichment.
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They might do it
a bit more informally for example,
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you know, just watching a video
when you're on the train
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or when you're cutting carrots for dinner,
you know, in your kitchen.
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So there are people who are opting
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not to do the workbook and the quiz,
but then there are other people
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who are considering it
a bit more of a formal process for them.
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And they're sitting down and they're being
intentional about the workbook.
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They're completing the quizzes.
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The primary reason
to complete the quizzes as well, apart
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from your own personal sense of completion
and learning,
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is that we do offer certificates as well.
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So if if people
do the full work and complete
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the full
number of quizzes in a course track,
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of course learning track, we issue
a certificate of completion for that.
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So that provides people a roadmap
that they can start a series of courses
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and do all the work and earn earn
a certificate of completion from that.
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So everybody's a little bit different.
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We wanted to serve all of those
purposes, really.
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For those
who do want to get the certificate or
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sort of the more involved road.
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Is there an ultimate
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on ramp or hope that they'll become
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degree seekers
or people who we sort of go through
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the formal degree program
at Northern or somewhere else?
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Yeah, that's a great question.
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And it's very timely because,
yes, that's the thing
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that we're working on right now.
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Let me back up
and give you a little context for that.
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So in offering this for the masses
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noncredit streaming videos.
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Our intention is never to replace
traditional seminary
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or degree programs
because we see a place for that as well.
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So this is not for us an either or.
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In fact, we want to provide pathways
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for people to start with noncredit
streaming video learning
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and then be able to take further steps
into deeper education
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and then to matriculate
into degree programs at at seminaries.
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So that is our goal.
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And that's the thing that is really we're
actively working on that this year.
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In fact, three days ago
we just sent a teaser email
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telling folks on our list
about the first four credit offerings
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of first four credit courses
that we're going
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to be offering in a pilot group this fall.
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So that is happening.
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And and again, the intention is that
this will be a bridge between seminary.
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Now and seminaries.
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For the students, it's a stepping stone
for the for the seminaries.
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It's also a pipeline, quite frankly.
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And so, yeah, that's our hope.
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We're developing that right now.
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It's actually really exciting.
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And it's the new thing
that we're that we're working on.
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And our hope is that we will
that will be a starting point for people
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to get into degree programs
at partner seminaries,
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sometimes people who may have always
envisioned themselves doing that,
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but other times people who may not really
have ever envisioned that
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until they really started
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getting their feet wet at seminary now
and begin to see themselves
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possibly doing that in the future.
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Yeah, always interesting
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new developments all the time in the
in the digital education space.
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Well, I want to move to talking
in a bigger sense,
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maybe even like a macro sense
about seminary now and sort of why now
00;14;08;23 - 00;14;12;10
with something like seminary
now, so many people are familiar with sort
00;14;12;10 - 00;14;17;19
of thinking through push and pull factors
for why some new project is developed.
00;14;17;19 - 00;14;18;21
And poll tends to be sort
00;14;18;21 - 00;14;21;23
of what's attracting energy
and interest in a certain area.
00;14;21;23 - 00;14;24;23
So in this case, in new digital education
opportunities
00;14;24;26 - 00;14;27;24
and then the push factors might
be ones that are sort of
00;14;28;27 - 00;14;32;11
pressures
that are leading toward more creativity.
00;14;32;11 - 00;14;33;08
And so I want to
00;14;33;08 - 00;14;36;00
go through some of the pull factors
and then some of the push factors
00;14;36;00 - 00;14;36;27
as you understand them.
00;14;36;27 - 00;14;39;27
Jason So in terms of the pull factors,
00;14;40;03 - 00;14;42;18
what is the
you can even think of this like
00;14;42;18 - 00;14;45;21
it's like a marketing analysis
or a market analysis of sort of
00;14;46;23 - 00;14;51;01
the possibilities
of an online seminary platform.
00;14;51;07 - 00;14;53;17
What is seminary now trying to meet?
00;14;53;17 - 00;14;56;17
What's the demand
that they're trying to meet?
00;14;56;18 - 00;14;57;10
Yeah, we'll start with that.
00;14;57;10 - 00;15;01;03
Where we do understand is sort of the
the state of affairs
00;15;01;03 - 00;15;05;10
that would lead people
to want to do online seminary education.
00;15;06;26 - 00;15;09;11
Yeah, good question.
00;15;09;11 - 00;15;14;12
I would say,
first of all, that our product,
00;15;14;12 - 00;15;17;12
so to speak, or our delivery
00;15;18;08 - 00;15;21;02
channel is quite well known now.
00;15;21;02 - 00;15;23;08
So I mean, people have Netflix
subscriptions,
00;15;23;08 - 00;15;26;17
they have Disney Plus subscriptions,
they have masterclass subscriptions.
00;15;26;17 - 00;15;29;21
So when they see seminary,
now they have a mental model
00;15;30;01 - 00;15;32;09
as a comparison point
to understand what it is.
00;15;33;22 - 00;15;35;06
I would say that
00;15;35;06 - 00;15;38;14
another component of this
is that in my view,
00;15;38;25 - 00;15;42;10
in a lot of ways
with respect to online content,
00;15;43;15 - 00;15;46;15
not just educational,
but including on social media
00;15;47;01 - 00;15;50;08
and other places,
I would say video is king.
00;15;50;14 - 00;15;51;04
Mm hmm.
00;15;51;04 - 00;15;54;01
So there's a
you know, just when you think about what
00;15;54;01 - 00;15;57;24
people are spending time
on, YouTube is a big part of that.
00;15;58;23 - 00;15;59;28
For better or worse.
00;15;59;28 - 00;16;03;24
You know, these one minute short videos on
Tik Tok and reels
00;16;03;24 - 00;16;04;22
and those sorts of things,
00;16;04;22 - 00;16;07;22
and I'm not saying
that's even a good thing necessarily with
00;16;07;28 - 00;16;11;01
what it might mean for attention
spans of people and those sorts of things.
00;16;11;01 - 00;16;14;01
But I think
all of these are indicators that
00;16;14;23 - 00;16;18;17
people really video is king in the
digital age in which we live.
00;16;20;05 - 00;16;20;29
And compared
00;16;20;29 - 00;16;24;03
to, you know, if you go back
to the early days of correspondence,
00;16;24;03 - 00;16;27;22
distance education, you know,
in universities or colleges or seminaries,
00;16;28;20 - 00;16;30;26
this is quite far from that.
00;16;30;26 - 00;16;33;26
It is on demand or asynchronous.
00;16;35;05 - 00;16;38;02
But you're you're getting a sense
of the person, right?
00;16;38;02 - 00;16;39;16
You're watching the video.
00;16;39;16 - 00;16;43;01
We're trying to create them
in such a way that you
00;16;43;07 - 00;16;48;03
you can almost see yourself in a classroom
with that person or begin to
00;16;48;23 - 00;16;51;16
imagine what it would be like
if you were talking to that person
00;16;51;16 - 00;16;53;02
or learning from that person.
00;16;53;02 - 00;16;56;08
So I think that's
all of what you can do with video.
00;16;57;04 - 00;17;01;02
The fact that it's very high
production value I think is esthetically
00;17;01;11 - 00;17;04;16
pleasing for people and they like that
component of it as well.
00;17;04;28 - 00;17;07;28
So I think that's some of the background
and context
00;17;08;21 - 00;17;13;26
that preexisted us entering this
space that is really provides
00;17;15;10 - 00;17;17;23
good ground for us to come into.
00;17;17;23 - 00;17;21;15
One the one thing I'm
a historian of American religion and
00;17;22;18 - 00;17;25;00
seminary now to me
is like the modern version of something
00;17;25;00 - 00;17;27;13
that is at least dates
back to the 19th century,
00;17;27;13 - 00;17;30;24
which is like the correspondence course
or the audio course of the
00;17;31;27 - 00;17;33;08
of the mid 20th century.
00;17;33;08 - 00;17;35;00
Do you ever think about that?
Like sort of that?
00;17;35;00 - 00;17;39;01
There's every generation sort of has
its way of every generation of seminaries,
00;17;39;01 - 00;17;42;23
you could say, have their ways
of trying to get their curriculum out
00;17;42;23 - 00;17;45;23
to a broader group of people, both
to recruit, but also because they think
00;17;46;06 - 00;17;49;08
the broader church needs more education.
00;17;49;14 - 00;17;50;26
I don't know if you ever reference
that stuff
00;17;50;26 - 00;17;54;06
when you're talking
sort of the earlier versions of distance,
00;17;54;06 - 00;17;57;21
asynchronous education
coming out of seminaries and colleges.
00;17;58;01 - 00;17;59;27
Yeah, I like that comparison.
00;17;59;27 - 00;18;01;11
I think you're right.
00;18;01;11 - 00;18;03;23
And I would say this is an example
00;18;03;23 - 00;18;07;28
of just embracing technology,
quite frankly.
00;18;07;29 - 00;18;11;00
I mean, if you go back early
enough to what you're talking about,
00;18;11;12 - 00;18;14;12
I would imagine that that colleges were
00;18;14;16 - 00;18;17;24
literally sending
VHS tapes in the mail. For.
00;18;18;01 - 00;18;19;20
You know, cassettes or whatever it is.
00;18;21;02 - 00;18;23;08
And of course, with technology today,
00;18;23;08 - 00;18;26;26
not only is it online, but it's streaming
00;18;26;26 - 00;18;29;26
so that, you know, there's no downloads.
00;18;30;04 - 00;18;33;16
And really, in that sense,
that's where accessibility comes in.
00;18;34;08 - 00;18;37;27
Literally, anyone with an Internet
connection can access this content.
00;18;39;21 - 00;18;42;27
Yes, of course, in our part of the world.
00;18;42;27 - 00;18;45;27
But, you know, the international side of
this is
00;18;46;11 - 00;18;48;20
important as well.
00;18;48;20 - 00;18;52;04
Well, on that point is your I don't know
00;18;52;04 - 00;18;55;04
you want to share your actual audience,
but your intended audience.
00;18;55;16 - 00;18;56;05
How broad is it?
00;18;56;05 - 00;18;59;05
Is there is there a desire
to sort of reach a global
00;18;59;23 - 00;19;02;28
Christian community
or are you mostly focused on
00;19;03;15 - 00;19;07;07
sort of English
speaking or North America type students?
00;19;08;17 - 00;19;13;16
Yeah, I would say that today we have
00;19;13;25 - 00;19;17;16
we certainly have international
persons using the platform.
00;19;19;01 - 00;19;20;12
We want to do more with that.
00;19;20;12 - 00;19;23;28
So the majority certainly
today are in North America.
00;19;24;25 - 00;19;28;05
We're wanting to be in the next year
or two a bit more intentional
00;19;28;16 - 00;19;31;16
with reaching international folks.
00;19;32;06 - 00;19;34;15
Probably the way that we'll do
that is through
00;19;34;15 - 00;19;38;09
coordinating and networking
with mission agencies and denominations.
00;19;40;08 - 00;19;43;08
And so that is on our horizon
for the future,
00;19;43;20 - 00;19;47;19
but partly because of just again,
the accessibility and the affordability of
00;19;47;19 - 00;19;50;27
it compared to what this would cost
00;19;50;27 - 00;19;53;27
for persons to do more formal education,
00;19;54;09 - 00;19;57;03
we think this is a really good fit
for international audience.
00;19;57;03 - 00;20;00;15
Yeah, one other aspect of the pull factor,
I wonder if you could talk about.
00;20;00;15 - 00;20;03;16
So we talked about the sort of demand
for this
00;20;03;17 - 00;20;06;25
being largely individuals
or church leaders.
00;20;07;01 - 00;20;10;22
Is there any sort of institutional demand
you just mentioned, like denominations or
00;20;12;08 - 00;20;13;11
NGOs or
00;20;13;11 - 00;20;16;11
or non-profits, or are those types of
00;20;17;05 - 00;20;19;16
clients
or audiences that you're trying to reach?
00;20;19;16 - 00;20;23;27
Or is this largely sort of individuals
signing up on their own volition?
00;20;25;11 - 00;20;26;25
Yeah, it's all of the above.
00;20;26;25 - 00;20;28;26
So we have
00;20;28;26 - 00;20;31;25
we do marketing to individuals, obviously.
00;20;31;25 - 00;20;34;25
So I mean, people could find us through
00;20;34;25 - 00;20;38;19
an email that goes out through a partner
or they could find us through a Facebook
00;20;38;19 - 00;20;42;12
ad or they could find us organically
from people sharing about seminary
00;20;42;12 - 00;20;43;09
now on social media.
00;20;43;09 - 00;20;45;24
So that's
sort of that individual component.
00;20;45;24 - 00;20;48;01
We also have
00;20;48;01 - 00;20;49;23
a church subscription.
00;20;49;23 - 00;20;52;27
So for those people who want some of
or now for their whole church,
00;20;53;13 - 00;20;57;00
there are also nonprofits
who use it for their staff.
00;20;57;03 - 00;21;00;27
So from a leadership development
standpoint or discipleship standpoint,
00;21;00;27 - 00;21;03;03
Christian nonprofits
who use it for that purpose.
00;21;04;03 - 00;21;07;03
There are also regional
00;21;07;11 - 00;21;10;15
groups of same denominations that use it.
00;21;11;12 - 00;21;14;20
But yes, so, yes, we're
and we're we're having conversations
00;21;14;20 - 00;21;19;25
with networks and nominations and agencies
and such as well.
00;21;20;00 - 00;21;21;13
Yeah.
00;21;21;13 - 00;21;23;00
One last aspect on the poll.
00;21;23;00 - 00;21;25;25
Is there a sense from your side
00;21;25;25 - 00;21;28;25
that there's a particular need for
00;21;29;06 - 00;21;33;04
seminary education right
now, like as opposed to 20 years ago?
00;21;33;04 - 00;21;36;04
Is there some like analysis
of a decline in
00;21;37;19 - 00;21;40;20
education level of of of Christian leaders
00;21;40;20 - 00;21;43;26
or or particular needs in particular
topics
00;21;44;29 - 00;21;46;03
or not?
00;21;46;03 - 00;21;46;14
I don't know.
00;21;46;14 - 00;21;48;07
I'm just thinking
of some of the other guests
00;21;48;07 - 00;21;51;14
we've had on the program
have talked about sort of a
00;21;52;25 - 00;21;55;06
some of them have talked about the crisis
in Christian education
00;21;55;06 - 00;21;59;15
or in sort of the level of literacy
and engagement that a lot of Christians
00;21;59;15 - 00;22;02;19
have with the Christian tradition
or with the Bible.
00;22;03;11 - 00;22;05;28
Do you have that same sense
or is that sort of not part
00;22;05;28 - 00;22;06;19
of how you're thinking of it?
00;22;08;06 - 00;22;09;22
Yeah, I do.
00;22;09;22 - 00;22;11;06
And of course, there's a lot of variables
there.
00;22;11;06 - 00;22;14;06
It partly depends on your church, right?
00;22;14;28 - 00;22;19;07
Tradition and to what degree
they value education now.
00;22;19;07 - 00;22;23;03
And I don't want to equate education
with seminary
00;22;23;03 - 00;22;26;03
degree programs because obviously
00;22;26;03 - 00;22;30;09
I want to find multiple ways
to be educating people.
00;22;30;09 - 00;22;33;06
And that's not always in the form
of a master's degree.
00;22;33;06 - 00;22;36;11
And that depends on the audience
and various people involved.
00;22;36;17 - 00;22;41;06
But there certainly are plenty of churches
00;22;41;06 - 00;22;45;01
and church traditions that don't value
00;22;45;16 - 00;22;48;05
education,
00;22;48;05 - 00;22;51;27
and there's sort of some theological
undergirding to that that I could probably
00;22;51;27 - 00;22;54;27
pontificate about for some for some time
00;22;55;13 - 00;22;58;18
related to, in my opinion, the
00;22;59;12 - 00;23;03;02
the desire to learn is really,
quite frankly and humility.
00;23;03;20 - 00;23;06;02
So one of the virtues, in my opinion,
00;23;06;02 - 00;23;09;15
of education is humility. And
00;23;10;15 - 00;23;12;12
I don't want to disparage
00;23;12;12 - 00;23;15;11
people who don't value education
the same way that I do,
00;23;15;19 - 00;23;19;11
but I sort of have seen occasionally there
that there's maybe
00;23;19;11 - 00;23;22;11
even a certain pride in it, like a go
it alone.
00;23;23;08 - 00;23;26;02
You know,
I don't need other people's help.
00;23;26;02 - 00;23;30;14
Or what that means for me is that I can't
00;23;30;27 - 00;23;34;17
benefit from from their learning, right.
00;23;34;20 - 00;23;37;28
And I can't benefit from the work
that they've done.
00;23;37;28 - 00;23;41;12
I use it as an example for this
sort of thing quite frequently.
00;23;42;17 - 00;23;44;07
I have my Ph.D.
00;23;44;07 - 00;23;49;13
mentor, Daniel Bloch, spent, say,
15 years studying the work of a zookeeper,
00;23;50;08 - 00;23;55;03
and the result was a two volume
commentary here that in total was,
00;23;55;03 - 00;23;58;16
I don't know, 1600 pages,
or maybe it was 2000 pages.
00;23;59;07 - 00;24;01;05
And I think that
00;24;02;14 - 00;24;03;16
it would be
00;24;03;16 - 00;24;06;16
hubris for me or anyone really to think
00;24;06;16 - 00;24;09;22
that they can't learn
from all the work that he did,
00;24;10;21 - 00;24;13;19
which isn't to say that
there is an evaluation and that you don't
00;24;13;19 - 00;24;17;16
think for yourself, obviously,
when you're reading his work on it.
00;24;18;20 - 00;24;22;12
But that to me is an example
of the kind of posture
00;24;22;12 - 00;24;26;02
we ought to have with education
that we do need to learn from others,
00;24;26;14 - 00;24;30;14
not only because some of those folks
are maybe smarter than me,
00;24;30;14 - 00;24;33;17
but also they've spent more time
on those areas
00;24;34;14 - 00;24;38;13
for the average church leader
or the average person in the pew, even
00;24;39;13 - 00;24;45;00
their calling in life is not to spend
five years learning Hebrew, many of them,
00;24;45;13 - 00;24;49;26
or not to spend 15 years
living with the Book of Ezekiel.
00;24;50;27 - 00;24;52;00
But for the
00;24;52;00 - 00;24;55;01
rest of
us, we do want to learn from those people.
00;24;55;01 - 00;24;59;13
And that's for me, represents
sort of the broader point of the value of
00;25;00;02 - 00;25;03;26
seminary education and learning
from people who have gone before
00;25;03;26 - 00;25;07;05
and put in that work
and really had a life calling to
00;25;07;05 - 00;25;10;05
to learn and educate others.
00;25;10;13 - 00;25;13;15
Yeah, I think of my own case,
00;25;13;15 - 00;25;17;00
and I've had good pastors
along the way who
00;25;18;02 - 00;25;18;23
never gave off.
00;25;18;23 - 00;25;22;01
The sense that you didn't need to learn
more is actually, you know,
00;25;22;01 - 00;25;25;02
you learn a little and you realize
how much more there is to learn.
00;25;26;00 - 00;25;29;00
And that creates
sort of a posture of always wanting
00;25;29;00 - 00;25;32;29
to learn more and realizing
none of us, certainly not.
00;25;34;22 - 00;25;37;09
Well, I won't even
I wouldn't even go to ages, but certainly
00;25;37;09 - 00;25;41;27
not not even the oldest of us
has a totally comprehensive or worked out
00;25;42;14 - 00;25;43;13
understanding of something
00;25;43;13 - 00;25;46;13
as complex as the Bible and the history
and the languages and everything else
00;25;46;15 - 00;25;48;02
that goes along with that, let alone
00;25;48;02 - 00;25;52;15
all the other areas of seminary education
and theology and elsewhere.
00;25;52;15 - 00;25;55;15
So yeah, really resonate with that.
00;25;55;18 - 00;25;55;24
Okay.
00;25;55;24 - 00;25;58;01
I want to move on
to some of the push factors.
00;25;58;01 - 00;26;02;11
So we've talked a bit about what
might attract a place like Northern.
00;26;03;05 - 00;26;07;03
Someone like you, Jason, to jump
into the online seminary education.
00;26;07;17 - 00;26;09;03
I want to think a bit
about the push factors.
00;26;09;03 - 00;26;12;23
So these would be ones
that have made seminary now sort of
00;26;14;12 - 00;26;17;11
maybe I don't know if it's necessary,
but more feasible in recent years
00;26;17;11 - 00;26;22;02
and and as part of changing
seminary education landscape.
00;26;22;02 - 00;26;26;16
So I don't know exactly which which angle
00;26;26;22 - 00;26;30;16
to enter into with, but are there
things happening in the seminary world?
00;26;30;16 - 00;26;33;16
And you can use Northern as an example,
you can just talk more generally
00;26;33;20 - 00;26;36;26
that make the need to move into the online
space
00;26;37;21 - 00;26;41;05
more pressing
now than then, certainly maybe
00;26;41;05 - 00;26;45;04
before COVID, but even in recent decades,
you talked about at at Northern,
00;26;45;04 - 00;26;49;07
you were already experimenting with online
even before even before COVID.
00;26;49;26 - 00;26;53;29
What's the sort of interest on the part
of the seminary to get into that space?
00;26;54;05 - 00;26;56;26
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Good question.
00;26;56;26 - 00;27;02;01
I mean, I'd like to say that first
it is mission, so I want to start there.
00;27;02;02 - 00;27;02;13
Sure.
00;27;03;23 - 00;27;04;18
In other words,
00;27;04;18 - 00;27;07;18
if our core mission is to educate
00;27;07;18 - 00;27;10;27
primarily church leaders and others, then
00;27;11;02 - 00;27;14;28
I don't want to limit ourselves
to just one form of doing the
00;27;16;05 - 00;27;20;02
particularly ever expensive form
and one that's hard
00;27;20;02 - 00;27;23;14
to sustain in the 21st century. So.
00;27;24;06 - 00;27;26;21
So that's it is mission? Absolutely.
00;27;26;21 - 00;27;31;06
I think you're also right,
there is an institutional
00;27;31;20 - 00;27;34;20
push on this that
00;27;35;01 - 00;27;37;07
seminaries, I think, in the 21st
00;27;37;07 - 00;27;40;07
century are and will be more struggling.
00;27;40;20 - 00;27;43;20
Many seminaries are declining
in enrollment.
00;27;43;22 - 00;27;47;29
The future on that
probably will be mergers
00;27;47;29 - 00;27;52;01
and those sorts of things so that people
seminaries can share resources.
00;27;52;10 - 00;27;55;26
It's a quite costly venture
when you think about all of the
00;27;55;26 - 00;27;58;17
the professors involved
and the administrative components
00;27;58;17 - 00;28;02;10
and whether there you have a residential
campus and all those sorts of things.
00;28;03;06 - 00;28;06;09
And so, yes, that's absolutely a pressure
00;28;06;09 - 00;28;11;24
point for seminaries
that relates to this bridge
00;28;11;24 - 00;28;15;16
that we want to create
from seminary now to seminaries.
00;28;16;03 - 00;28;18;27
And we think that there will there
00;28;18;27 - 00;28;22;11
always will be placed
for seminary degree programs,
00;28;23;11 - 00;28;25;12
maybe not for every person.
00;28;25;12 - 00;28;28;11
But we want to provide,
00;28;28;11 - 00;28;33;02
as I said before, pathways
for people to be able to start,
00;28;33;07 - 00;28;36;04
get their feet wet
and see where God is, is
00;28;36;04 - 00;28;39;04
calling them and leading them
to in terms of further education.
00;28;39;10 - 00;28;42;05
So if that means that in the end
00;28;42;05 - 00;28;45;05
we have more students
00;28;45;07 - 00;28;49;20
matriculated into degree programs
at seminaries,
00;28;50;01 - 00;28;54;19
which is one of our two outcomes,
then that will be something positive for
00;28;55;05 - 00;28;58;05
for sustaining seminaries
in the 21st century.
00;28;58;12 - 00;29;02;13
What's your read
on the declining demographics,
00;29;02;13 - 00;29;05;18
I guess you could say, of
or the pool of students that want to
00;29;06;17 - 00;29;08;21
join seminaries and get degrees?
00;29;08;21 - 00;29;10;14
Is that just sort of a demographic ethic?
00;29;10;14 - 00;29;13;01
Is destiny
demographics is destiny type thing
00;29;13;01 - 00;29;16;09
where there's just less, I don't know,
00;29;16;17 - 00;29;19;23
less Christians in the country or
something, and so fewer them
00;29;20;24 - 00;29;23;23
are interested in seminary education,
00;29;23;23 - 00;29;25;09
is there?
00;29;25;09 - 00;29;25;21
Yeah. Yeah.
00;29;25;21 - 00;29;28;29
What do you think the sort of situation
is in terms of the demand
00;29;28;29 - 00;29;30;09
for seminary education?
00;29;30;09 - 00;29;33;00
Mm hmm. Yeah.
00;29;33;00 - 00;29;35;19
I take sort of an all of the above
approach on this.
00;29;35;19 - 00;29;39;25
I think part of it could be
the decline of decline of the church
00;29;40;07 - 00;29;43;27
or some degree of Christian faith
in our culture in general.
00;29;45;12 - 00;29;47;04
I don't think that's solely it.
00;29;47;04 - 00;29;50;04
I think part of it
could be something I referred to before,
00;29;50;27 - 00;29;53;27
which is that some church traditions
aren't
00;29;53;28 - 00;29;56;14
expecting or requiring that level
00;29;56;14 - 00;29;59;13
of formal education for pastors.
00;29;59;15 - 00;30;01;16
And so
00;30;01;16 - 00;30;03;18
that's certainly a component of it.
00;30;03;18 - 00;30;04;04
Mm hmm.
00;30;04;04 - 00;30;08;00
It's also possible that people are able
00;30;08;00 - 00;30;13;05
to get educated in a less
formal way through books.
00;30;13;05 - 00;30;16;27
Yes, but but dare I say,
even YouTube as well, whether it's
00;30;17;12 - 00;30;21;11
professors or who are lecturing
or doing podcasts, obviously
00;30;21;11 - 00;30;25;16
there's a lot of learning out there
on any number of topics that you can do.
00;30;26;07 - 00;30;30;04
And so those are all probably factors
that perhaps
00;30;30;04 - 00;30;33;10
give people alternatives
to feel like they can
00;30;34;09 - 00;30;35;19
educate themselves to some
00;30;35;19 - 00;30;38;19
degree in a less formal way.
00;30;38;23 - 00;30;40;14
Yeah.
00;30;40;14 - 00;30;40;29
Okay.
00;30;40;29 - 00;30;45;27
Let's talk a bit about the challenges
to this type of online education.
00;30;45;27 - 00;30;48;27
Can you just telling me
about some of the challenges you've faced
00;30;49;16 - 00;30;51;16
with seminary now,
or are there any particular
00;30;51;16 - 00;30;54;16
sort of perennial challenges or
00;30;55;13 - 00;30;57;09
they could even be technical ones,
I'm not sure, but
00;30;57;09 - 00;31;00;11
but yeah, would have been the sort of most
00;31;00;13 - 00;31;03;25
interesting problems
that you've confronted with seminary now.
00;31;04;23 - 00;31;07;10
Mm hmm. Yeah.
00;31;07;10 - 00;31;10;10
That's a good question.
00;31;12;05 - 00;31;15;18
Part of it is a little bit
00;31;15;26 - 00;31;18;26
just on the networking side.
00;31;19;21 - 00;31;24;02
We have reached a lot of audiences
00;31;24;22 - 00;31;28;10
through, for example, our partners
and that sort of thing.
00;31;29;12 - 00;31;32;12
I think our brand awareness is growing,
00;31;32;23 - 00;31;35;22
but I think there's still a lot more room
to be reaching more people
00;31;37;08 - 00;31;39;09
so that we can have a greater impact.
00;31;39;09 - 00;31;41;05
That's certainly part of it.
00;31;41;05 - 00;31;43;20
From an educational standpoint,
00;31;43;20 - 00;31;46;20
I think we've wrestled with
00;31;47;03 - 00;31;48;29
what what are we
00;31;48;29 - 00;31;51;29
accomplishing with
what I would call the level of content?
00;31;52;01 - 00;31;52;15
Mm hmm.
00;31;52;15 - 00;31;56;03
In other words, the first thing
that we've done in these Noncredit courses
00;31;56;16 - 00;31;59;27
is, you know, a relatively short,
00;32;00;13 - 00;32;03;13
compact, concise video courses.
00;32;04;02 - 00;32;08;11
They're not at the level
of the masters of Master's credit.
00;32;08;11 - 00;32;11;03
Certainly.
00;32;11;03 - 00;32;14;13
So I think I have wrestled
a little bit with
00;32;15;11 - 00;32;17;26
should the content actually be deeper?
00;32;17;26 - 00;32;20;14
Should it be more involved and I think
00;32;20;14 - 00;32;23;14
we're addressing that now
with these four credit courses
00;32;23;29 - 00;32;28;01
whereby people who for most people,
00;32;28;01 - 00;32;31;28
the content in its current form
is probably right for them.
00;32;33;03 - 00;32;35;04
But for those people
00;32;35;04 - 00;32;38;13
who do want to start there
but then want to go deeper,
00;32;39;08 - 00;32;42;03
I think these four credit classes
that we're developing
00;32;42;03 - 00;32;44;23
are providing an avenue on that.
00;32;44;23 - 00;32;48;03
And with these four credit,
just to clarify the model,
00;32;48;03 - 00;32;53;07
so is the idea that you
you take some some classes through the
00;32;54;15 - 00;32;55;20
seminary now
00;32;55;20 - 00;33;00;07
and then those transfer into a a seminary
whether it's northern
00;33;00;07 - 00;33;02;25
or maybe there's other ones
that are also accepting credits.
00;33;02;25 - 00;33;03;21
Okay. Yeah.
00;33;03;21 - 00;33;05;27
We have about five seminary partners
right now.
00;33;05;27 - 00;33;08;27
And the vision is that
00;33;09;01 - 00;33;12;04
each partner school would offer courses.
00;33;12;05 - 00;33;15;05
So you're actually taking a course
from that school.
00;33;15;29 - 00;33;17;22
And at the end of the day,
you will receive
00;33;17;22 - 00;33;20;22
a transcript with credits
from that particular school.
00;33;21;07 - 00;33;25;00
But the courses being delivered
through the Seminary Now system
00;33;26;01 - 00;33;29;01
and so in that sense is a little bit
of a mediated
00;33;29;15 - 00;33;33;14
experience of that partner school,
but it's that partner schools professor
00;33;33;14 - 00;33;37;18
and that and you're really engaging
and we're trying to really give them
00;33;37;23 - 00;33;40;21
an experience of what it would be like
00;33;40;21 - 00;33;44;05
to take a course from that school
or from their professors.
00;33;44;19 - 00;33;47;04
But yes,
it's mediated to the seminary system.
00;33;47;04 - 00;33;51;13
And then our goal is
that these are really exploratory.
00;33;51;17 - 00;33;54;17
It provides people a taste of seminary.
00;33;54;22 - 00;33;58;02
We won't let them take half
a degree program
00;33;58;02 - 00;34;00;09
or a whole degree program
through seminary.
00;34;00;09 - 00;34;04;10
Now they'll be able to take three or four
or five or six classes,
00;34;04;29 - 00;34;07;27
roughly a semester's worth of classes.
00;34;07;27 - 00;34;12;14
And then really from there, we yes,
we want them to move to convert
00;34;12;14 - 00;34;15;14
or to matriculate into a degree program
at a partner seminary
00;34;15;14 - 00;34;19;09
and all of those credits
that they earned through this exploratory
00;34;19;09 - 00;34;23;09
experience will apply or be credited
towards their degree program.
00;34;23;10 - 00;34;25;24
Right. Okay. That makes that makes sense.
00;34;25;24 - 00;34;29;12
You mentioned sort of the role of YouTube.
00;34;29;15 - 00;34;34;00
You even mentioned Tik-tok as sort of
one of these video is King platforms.
00;34;34;01 - 00;34;36;00
I wonder if this has been
a challenge at all, Which is
00;34;36;29 - 00;34;38;29
your mission is to deliver
00;34;38;29 - 00;34;42;14
much more substantive content
00;34;42;14 - 00;34;45;19
than either Tik-tok or YouTube varies.
00;34;45;19 - 00;34;46;21
There's a lot of good stuff on YouTube,
00;34;46;21 - 00;34;50;15
but there's also a lot of junk
and sort of light light fare as well.
00;34;50;27 - 00;34;54;12
Has that been the challenge to try to,
I think even on the production side, like
00;34;54;12 - 00;35;00;10
how do you make a video about a sort
of theological topic or a biblical topic
00;35;01;14 - 00;35;04;14
interesting in a way
that would hold the attention of people
00;35;04;25 - 00;35;08;27
of the same way that YouTube does or that
all these other or Netflix or whatever?
00;35;09;07 - 00;35;12;03
Is that is that sort of a conversation
that goes on in the production level?
00;35;12;03 - 00;35;16;04
Is it can't I assume it's
not just take your lecture notes
00;35;17;00 - 00;35;20;12
that you would give in class,
read them in front of the camera
00;35;20;12 - 00;35;24;00
and then voila, we have a great,
you know, a great video.
00;35;24;00 - 00;35;26;08
I assume there's a lot more work done
into it, too,
00;35;26;08 - 00;35;29;15
to make those high production values
and to make it in some way appealing
00;35;29;15 - 00;35;33;11
to people who are used to
other online video content.
00;35;34;14 - 00;35;35;20
Yeah, it's a good question.
00;35;35;20 - 00;35;38;20
And that actually, in a sense
is one of the challenges
00;35;38;20 - 00;35;42;01
that and you asked about that earlier, it
00;35;43;02 - 00;35;45;05
if you if I were to say well who
00;35;45;05 - 00;35;48;05
what is the what are the alternatives
that are out there for people
00;35;48;17 - 00;35;52;11
or what are the even
the competitors to seminary now?
00;35;53;12 - 00;35;57;04
I think in a sense that the biggest
competitor is just all the free content
00;35;57;04 - 00;35;58;14
that's out there in the world.
00;35;58;14 - 00;36;02;24
And so why should people pay
for our content?
00;36;02;24 - 00;36;04;24
Granted, it's very affordable price.
00;36;04;24 - 00;36;08;18
That is before I mean, essentially $20
a month is access to all of our content.
00;36;09;02 - 00;36;12;02
So it's intended to be very affordable
for people, but nevertheless,
00;36;12;08 - 00;36;17;26
why pull out your wallet and actually
pay for this content when you can get it?
00;36;19;20 - 00;36;21;24
Or similar things on YouTube right.
00;36;21;24 - 00;36;24;11
I think it's a couple of answers.
00;36;24;11 - 00;36;27;11
One of them is, is that YouTube
00;36;27;25 - 00;36;30;25
often is podcasts, and podcasts are great
00;36;32;20 - 00;36;35;19
or podcast type interviews,
those sorts of things.
00;36;35;19 - 00;36;40;15
But also a lot of it is lecture recordings
which are quite low production value.
00;36;40;15 - 00;36;44;05
So I do think that the production value
side of it, just from a video standpoint,
00;36;44;16 - 00;36;47;12
is a distinguishing factor
and people feel like
00;36;47;12 - 00;36;51;23
they're signing up for something that's
similar to master class in that regard.
00;36;52;11 - 00;36;55;02
Also, I would say
the exclusivity of the content.
00;36;55;02 - 00;36;58;19
So like, you know, if you're
if you're talking about master class,
00;36;59;15 - 00;37;03;05
if I want to go learn from Steph Curry
00;37;03;05 - 00;37;06;05
about how to dribble a basketball,
00;37;07;01 - 00;37;10;03
that's probably
that's probably on YouTube, right.
00;37;10;03 - 00;37;12;20
Like so and at least not in the same way.
00;37;12;20 - 00;37;15;20
And so there's an exclusivity component
that this
00;37;16;01 - 00;37;19;01
this content is only accessible now.
00;37;19;12 - 00;37;21;01
There are things that are similar.
00;37;22;06 - 00;37;22;20
We have a
00;37;22;20 - 00;37;25;20
course with John Walton on Genesis one.
00;37;25;20 - 00;37;26;27
Mm hmm.
00;37;26;27 - 00;37;30;17
And you could probably find lectures
00;37;31;09 - 00;37;34;29
of him
talking about that topic on YouTube,
00;37;37;04 - 00;37;40;00
but probably not quite in a course format
00;37;40;00 - 00;37;44;08
in a sort of a coherent,
structured teaching way.
00;37;44;22 - 00;37;48;09
So I think that there are a lot of ways
in which our content is different than
00;37;48;09 - 00;37;51;17
in unique then from some of that content
that's out there for free.
00;37;53;06 - 00;37;56;11
And then you also you asked about
one more thing I think you asked about.
00;37;57;18 - 00;38;00;07
Well, just just sort of the production
values or the
00;38;00;07 - 00;38;03;07
the attention span,
I mean, thinking and just about how
00;38;03;07 - 00;38;06;19
how to reach the people you want to reach
who are really conditioned.
00;38;06;23 - 00;38;10;02
And I would count myself in this, by the
way, conditions are sort of really short,
00;38;10;20 - 00;38;14;07
catchy video content, and then you're
asking for something longer.
00;38;14;22 - 00;38;16;09
Yeah, a couple of things.
00;38;16;09 - 00;38;19;03
When we're selecting teachers,
00;38;19;03 - 00;38;22;08
we are thinking about and factoring in to
00;38;22;08 - 00;38;26;03
that selection who can talk in
an engaging way, quite frankly?
00;38;26;03 - 00;38;28;15
Mm hmm.
That's not true of everybody. Right.
00;38;28;15 - 00;38;32;06
But that's not relevant
if you're picking up a book.
00;38;32;17 - 00;38;33;08
Right? Right.
00;38;33;08 - 00;38;36;11
That that author does
have to be an engaging speaker.
00;38;37;07 - 00;38;40;06
But for this delivery format,
that is certainly something
00;38;40;06 - 00;38;43;17
we're taking into consideration
with respect to length.
00;38;43;18 - 00;38;46;18
And that's, I think that's what you were
alluding to a little bit there.
00;38;46;20 - 00;38;49;10
One of our values
00;38;49;10 - 00;38;52;10
or practices is short video segments.
00;38;53;00 - 00;38;56;00
So we've we've basically decided that
00;38;56;03 - 00;39;00;14
however long our total video
content is for a course,
00;39;01;05 - 00;39;04;15
typically that's two and a half to 3 hours
for these Noncredit courses.
00;39;05;09 - 00;39;08;08
But for the four credit courses
which we're creating right now, it's
00;39;08;08 - 00;39;09;28
going to be significantly longer.
00;39;09;28 - 00;39;11;24
Like four of those four credit courses
00;39;11;24 - 00;39;15;19
will probably produce
five times as much video content.
00;39;15;19 - 00;39;18;26
So instead of two and a half hours,
it might be 10 hours of video content.
00;39;19;07 - 00;39;22;20
But in both cases we're chunking it
00;39;23;20 - 00;39;27;24
so even if it's 10 hours of video,
we're going to put it
00;39;27;24 - 00;39;33;01
in a bite size format because we do
think there is something about,
00;39;34;14 - 00;39;36;11
you know, the human psyche
00;39;36;11 - 00;39;39;11
or, you know, pedagogically about,
00;39;39;23 - 00;39;43;01
you know, not sitting down
and watching a 55 minute video.
00;39;43;11 - 00;39;45;19
And I think the
the outcome is the same. Right?
00;39;45;19 - 00;39;49;04
You can sit down and watch two
or three of those in one sitting.
00;39;49;19 - 00;39;53;01
But I think psychologically it just feels
a little bit different compared
00;39;53;01 - 00;39;56;19
to feeling like you have to make it
through a 55 minute video.
00;39;56;23 - 00;39;59;23
Yeah, I even think I think of something
00;40;00;02 - 00;40;01;16
another type of online thing.
00;40;01;16 - 00;40;04;25
I was just doing for
for another part of Upper House work
00;40;05;03 - 00;40;09;01
that had a similar thing
where it chunked out like a 50 minutes.
00;40;09;16 - 00;40;12;08
Well, it was
it was produced on five minute levels was
00;40;12;08 - 00;40;16;04
it was ten five minute videos,
which just psychologically feels better
00;40;16;04 - 00;40;19;19
than 150 minute video for whatever
reason, partly because you can put it down
00;40;19;19 - 00;40;22;21
and then pick it back up again
and you know where you were and stuff.
00;40;22;21 - 00;40;25;21
But yeah, yeah, that's definitely,
00;40;26;15 - 00;40;29;18
definitely a smart thing to play into
in terms of the human condition.
00;40;29;18 - 00;40;32;13
I think getting getting bite size.
00;40;32;13 - 00;40;34;01
Okay. Just a couple more questions here.
00;40;34;01 - 00;40;37;23
I did wonder your thoughts on
you mentioned you mentioned a bit
00;40;37;23 - 00;40;41;23
about the relationship of seminary
now to sort of adult education
00;40;41;23 - 00;40;45;24
in the church and other forms of education
that might be available.
00;40;46;00 - 00;40;48;09
The series is on Christian education
more broadly.
00;40;48;09 - 00;40;52;01
So we're thinking in this series
of everything from a formal seminary
00;40;52;01 - 00;40;55;23
degree to Christian colleges
to a Sunday school at church
00;40;56;23 - 00;41;00;12
to K-through-12 education,
all types of Christian education.
00;41;01;02 - 00;41;03;08
How do you see seminary now relating?
00;41;03;08 - 00;41;05;14
You'll have to go through all those,
but in sort of a broader
00;41;05;14 - 00;41;08;14
ecosystem of Christian education,
what role do you hope it plays
00;41;08;26 - 00;41;11;26
in the broader
ecosystem of Christian education?
00;41;12;13 - 00;41;13;27
Mm hmm. Yeah.
00;41;13;27 - 00;41;17;07
Maybe the thing that those different use
00;41;17;07 - 00;41;22;03
cases and contexts
and audiences have and have in common
00;41;22;03 - 00;41;25;03
or the way to differentiate them,
00;41;26;11 - 00;41;29;20
is partly their purpose
00;41;29;20 - 00;41;32;20
and what they're using it for.
00;41;32;29 - 00;41;34;08
But I would say that
00;41;34;08 - 00;41;39;05
we definitely think the content can meet
all of all of those needs.
00;41;39;05 - 00;41;42;07
So I mentioned, for example, I don't know
00;41;42;07 - 00;41;45;07
if I referred to this
when I talked about it earlier, but
00;41;45;16 - 00;41;48;16
we've had some conversations with a group
00;41;48;25 - 00;41;53;08
from InterVarsity University Christian
Fellowship, I think probably rooted at UW
00;41;53;08 - 00;41;57;05
Madison about that class of people
00;41;57;26 - 00;42;01;14
that are academics and may be professors.
00;42;01;23 - 00;42;04;15
Maybe they're in PhD programs.
00;42;04;15 - 00;42;07;09
And yet you think about campus ministry
00;42;07;09 - 00;42;11;05
and how are we ministering to
00;42;11;05 - 00;42;14;08
and educating
and forming Christians on campus.
00;42;15;24 - 00;42;16;26
That is one
00;42;16;26 - 00;42;20;06
of, I think, an important
use case for seminary now.
00;42;20;24 - 00;42;24;02
And so we've done some work with them
to make seminary
00;42;24;02 - 00;42;27;02
known among those sorts of folks as well,
00;42;28;11 - 00;42;29;23
from a from a Christian,
00;42;29;23 - 00;42;32;23
a lay Christian audience standpoint
as well.
00;42;33;02 - 00;42;36;25
Of different people in
the pew are at different levels.
00;42;36;25 - 00;42;39;19
And I mean that in the best way.
00;42;39;19 - 00;42;42;23
There are some people who
perhaps aren't ready
00;42;42;23 - 00;42;45;27
for our level of content yet,
but many are.
00;42;46;02 - 00;42;48;23
And and each
course is a little bit different.
00;42;48;23 - 00;42;51;23
Some of our courses are more
00;42;52;16 - 00;42;55;14
in tune for that sort of use case.
00;42;55;14 - 00;42;58;06
Let me give you one example.
00;42;58;06 - 00;43;00;23
One of our courses is from Sandor Richter.
00;43;00;23 - 00;43;03;24
It's called The Stewards of Eden,
which is a course about scripture
00;43;03;24 - 00;43;07;13
and environmental stewardship and creation
care and those sorts of things.
00;43;09;05 - 00;43;11;27
Or another one is from Carmen Ames.
00;43;11;27 - 00;43;16;07
She has a book called Beer in God's Name,
and it's sort of an introduction
00;43;16;07 - 00;43;19;21
to Old Testament theology,
but it's something that really resonates
00;43;19;21 - 00;43;23;08
with the average Christian who's
trying to make sense of the Old Testament.
00;43;23;19 - 00;43;26;21
So a lot of content in that sense
that that's just really good
00;43;26;21 - 00;43;29;03
for small group use
00;43;29;03 - 00;43;32;03
and in adult education in churches.
00;43;32;04 - 00;43;35;25
So our we call church subscriptions
include
00;43;36;03 - 00;43;39;10
both of those facets, both leadership
00;43;39;10 - 00;43;42;10
development and discipleship.
00;43;42;13 - 00;43;45;13
We want it to be that a church can send
00;43;46;09 - 00;43;49;21
emerging leaders through a learning track,
00;43;50;12 - 00;43;53;26
and that's sort of their
their leadership development
00;43;55;00 - 00;43;57;08
program, if you will.
00;43;57;08 - 00;44;01;06
And incidentally, some churches aren't
even thinking about those sorts of things.
00;44;01;06 - 00;44;03;08
But we want them to be thinking about them
more.
00;44;03;08 - 00;44;03;15
Right.
00;44;03;15 - 00;44;07;07
Other words,
how are you identifying and equipping
00;44;07;07 - 00;44;11;03
and training your emerging leaders
and your current leaders?
00;44;11;27 - 00;44;14;28
And we think seminary now, quite
frankly, is just a good tool for that.
00;44;15;21 - 00;44;18;13
We want to come alongside churches
in that regard, like
00;44;18;13 - 00;44;21;17
you would really at the end of the
day, they're implementing.
00;44;23;06 - 00;44;24;16
They might be the ones to
00;44;24;16 - 00;44;27;19
provide the structure
and the accountability
00;44;28;09 - 00;44;33;02
and maybe even some group dynamics around
how people experience that content.
00;44;33;02 - 00;44;36;02
So it's it's collaborative in that sense.
00;44;36;12 - 00;44;39;14
But we want to be a tool
that churches can use
00;44;39;26 - 00;44;41;24
for both the leadership development side
00;44;41;24 - 00;44;46;01
as well as the adult education
or the discipleship side of it as well.
00;44;46;03 - 00;44;50;15
Yeah, that makes sense with a digital
asynchronous way to do it right,
00;44;50;15 - 00;44;54;09
that makes it so much more convenient for
churches in particular to get on board.
00;44;55;02 - 00;44;56;05
Yeah. Yeah.
00;44;56;05 - 00;44;59;05
Then I'm just thinking of like
staffing and,
00;44;59;27 - 00;45;01;22
you know,
if you do it, the traditional way,
00;45;01;22 - 00;45;06;08
having a staff person sort of take up
seminary classes can be, you know,
00;45;06;10 - 00;45;09;13
a big part of their job for the next two
or three years or however long it takes.
00;45;10;05 - 00;45;10;16
Exactly.
00;45;10;16 - 00;45;12;26
And this would be a way to
maybe mitigate some of that
00;45;13;27 - 00;45;16;04
some of that commitment,
00;45;16;04 - 00;45;19;03
at least in terms of time and
and location.
00;45;19;28 - 00;45;22;21
Okay, Jason, just a couple questions
on a bigger picture
00;45;22;21 - 00;45;24;01
here, too, to close us out.
00;45;24;01 - 00;45;27;01
So I want to pull back from just
00;45;27;03 - 00;45;30;16
digital education and the seminary
now platform and just get your sense of
00;45;30;29 - 00;45;34;18
what when I when you think of
sort of Christian higher education
00;45;34;18 - 00;45;38;13
or even just the seminary world,
what is the what are the hurdles
00;45;38;13 - 00;45;42;08
that you're facing right now
as an institution, as an educator?
00;45;43;06 - 00;45;46;25
And then I'll ask you about where
you think we're going in the near future.
00;45;46;25 - 00;45;50;26
But first, just what are the top
couple things that come to mind
00;45;51;05 - 00;45;54;18
when you think of hurdles on the broader
education landscape right now?
00;45;55;14 - 00;45;57;01
Mm hmm. Mm hmm.
00;45;57;01 - 00;45;57;12
Yeah.
00;45;57;12 - 00;46;01;23
I mean, probably the first thing is
just the sustainability question
00;46;01;23 - 00;46;03;03
that we referred to earlier,
00;46;04;20 - 00;46;07;02
which is to say
00;46;07;02 - 00;46;09;19
this seminary now in its current
00;46;09;19 - 00;46;13;29
or traditional format,
is costly and thinking through
00;46;14;20 - 00;46;18;09
how to make it sustainable
for the 21st century.
00;46;19;13 - 00;46;20;04
So that's probably
00;46;20;04 - 00;46;23;11
I mean, to be honest with you,
that's an existential question, of course.
00;46;23;12 - 00;46;25;29
And so I think in that sense,
that's probably
00;46;25;29 - 00;46;29;20
what's on most seminaries minds right now.
00;46;29;28 - 00;46;32;25
That's both a challenge
and an opportunity, right?
00;46;32;25 - 00;46;35;24
Because on the one hand, you could
00;46;36;28 - 00;46;42;01
shrink, so to speak, to challenge
and then double entendre here, shrink
00;46;42;05 - 00;46;45;05
sort of in numbers as well.
00;46;46;08 - 00;46;48;17
Or you could lean into that and say,
well, what
00;46;48;17 - 00;46;52;18
how can we innovate and evolve
and how can we meet
00;46;52;24 - 00;46;53;12
the new
00;46;53;12 - 00;46;55;04
the new demands and the new needs
00;46;55;04 - 00;46;57;26
that people have out there
and meet them where they are.
00;46;57;26 - 00;47;03;00
And so I think in that sense, something
like seminary now is an example of that.
00;47;04;18 - 00;47;07;18
Other challenges,
00;47;08;11 - 00;47;12;11
I think denominational seminaries
00;47;13;12 - 00;47;16;12
might be challenged a little bit as well,
00;47;17;14 - 00;47;19;15
that there's fewer students to go around
00;47;19;15 - 00;47;22;20
if people have a strong pipeline
from their denomination.
00;47;22;20 - 00;47;25;20
And sometimes that can go well. Mm hmm.
00;47;25;20 - 00;47;29;00
What we've seen at Northern Seminary
is that
00;47;29;26 - 00;47;32;03
when people can do
00;47;32;03 - 00;47;35;03
probably most seminaries these days
without moving.
00;47;35;18 - 00;47;35;26
Right.
00;47;35;26 - 00;47;39;06
So like distance programs
and not even just in the old
00;47;39;06 - 00;47;42;06
asynchronous way, but but in these newer
00;47;43;00 - 00;47;46;00
synchronous
and video conference type ways as well.
00;47;46;21 - 00;47;50;05
People can pick one of 100 seminaries
00;47;50;16 - 00;47;53;16
and they don't have to move to Houston or
00;47;54;03 - 00;47;56;09
Los Angeles or wherever else.
00;47;56;09 - 00;47;59;05
So that does really it's
it really becomes a marketplace
00;47;59;05 - 00;48;01;28
for people to select their seminary.
There's a variety of factors.
00;48;01;28 - 00;48;06;00
Sometimes it's denominational,
but one, it's not denomination.
00;48;06;07 - 00;48;09;15
I think at the end of the day,
it's a little bit about who is your tribe,
00;48;09;25 - 00;48;11;21
for better or worse? Mm hmm.
00;48;11;21 - 00;48;14;22
And it's also a bit about
00;48;15;25 - 00;48;19;24
learning
from people that you regard to be,
00;48;20;14 - 00;48;23;01
you know, the people, the types of people
that you read their books.
00;48;23;01 - 00;48;25;23
And maybe they're your theological heroes.
00;48;25;23 - 00;48;27;17
Now, there's a little bit of a danger
there.
00;48;27;17 - 00;48;29;12
I don't some.
00;48;29;12 - 00;48;32;02
To some degree, it just is what it is.
00;48;32;02 - 00;48;36;21
I don't I don't want to create
a celebrity culture around that either.
00;48;37;03 - 00;48;40;03
But that is one component of
00;48;40;19 - 00;48;43;20
the seminaries that are doing well
and maybe some of the seminaries
00;48;43;20 - 00;48;44;22
are doing well.
00;48;44;22 - 00;48;48;03
Just from a sheer
demand and interest standpoint.
00;48;48;24 - 00;48;50;05
Yes. I hear you say two things there.
00;48;50;05 - 00;48;56;10
One is that there is an element of
of what you said, what tribe be part of.
00;48;56;10 - 00;48;57;12
So I'll say tribalism.
00;48;57;12 - 00;48;57;23
I don't know.
00;48;57;23 - 00;49;01;21
Maybe that that's ratcheted up too far,
but a sense of some people are being more
00;49;01;21 - 00;49;02;25
discerning based on
00;49;04;00 - 00;49;05;14
based on variety of
00;49;05;14 - 00;49;09;04
theological, cultural, other factors
where they want to go to seminary.
00;49;09;09 - 00;49;11;10
And the other thing
I heard you saying was that
00;49;11;10 - 00;49;14;21
the marketplace has sort of nationalized
or even internationalized
00;49;15;01 - 00;49;18;29
in a way where location matters much less
now that now that you can go to any
00;49;20;04 - 00;49;23;13
any well-known seminary, maybe,
you know, top five, No.
00;49;23;13 - 00;49;26;13
One seminary
and can probably get a degree there
00;49;26;18 - 00;49;29;18
in a way that would be
00;49;30;06 - 00;49;33;19
would be like going to somewhere
that's more local,
00;49;33;19 - 00;49;36;24
maybe that that that sort of flattens
the marketplace in a way.
00;49;36;24 - 00;49;39;26
It means being in a certain region
doesn't really help you
00;49;39;26 - 00;49;42;16
as much as it used to as it is.
Yeah. Okay.
00;49;42;16 - 00;49;43;24
So that's that's really interesting.
00;49;43;24 - 00;49;47;02
And I can definitely get a sense of that.
00;49;47;02 - 00;49;50;27
Just even reading the sort of chronicle
of higher education news coming out
00;49;50;27 - 00;49;54;17
about the struggles of certain seminaries,
that that helps make sense.
00;49;54;17 - 00;49;57;17
A bit of of why
they might be under so much pressure.
00;49;57;20 - 00;49;58;08
Yeah.
00;49;58;08 - 00;50;02;19
Last question is just giving
Give us a sense of maybe one thing
00;50;02;19 - 00;50;06;25
that you're looking for in the future
for Christian higher education.
00;50;06;26 - 00;50;08;10
Is there either some
00;50;10;21 - 00;50;11;00
well,
00;50;11;00 - 00;50;14;00
you could say a looming thing
that sort of is haunting your
00;50;14;00 - 00;50;17;00
your dreams or something
that you're looking forward to
00;50;17;22 - 00;50;20;22
in the next few years or decade or so
00;50;21;03 - 00;50;23;15
in in Christian higher ed?
00;50;23;15 - 00;50;24;20
Mm hmm.
00;50;24;20 - 00;50;24;26
Yeah.
00;50;24;26 - 00;50;27;28
Maybe I'll mention a couple of things
that I am hopeful about
00;50;28;20 - 00;50;31;20
Slash excited about.
00;50;31;25 - 00;50;34;24
I think one of them is
00;50;35;05 - 00;50;39;20
the idea that institutions
can begin to work together more.
00;50;39;25 - 00;50;41;11
Mm hmm.
00;50;41;11 - 00;50;44;25
You know, is that an efficiency
of resources issue? Yes.
00;50;45;13 - 00;50;48;13
But I think a little bit
it's laying down our,
00;50;49;23 - 00;50;51;08
you know, survival instincts.
00;50;51;08 - 00;50;54;08
A bit free for each of us and coordinating
00;50;54;08 - 00;50;57;08
so that that excites me for the future.
00;50;57;11 - 00;51;00;17
Another component of the a little bit
different is
00;51;01;18 - 00;51;04;18
I'm pretty interested in
00;51;04;26 - 00;51;08;29
what you might call
dual enrollment type situations
00;51;09;28 - 00;51;12;00
that could happen at a variety of levels.
00;51;12;00 - 00;51;15;08
I mean, you've got juniors and seniors
in high school
00;51;15;16 - 00;51;18;19
who are taking college credit
and it sort of counts both ways.
00;51;19;04 - 00;51;22;18
But that can also happen at the undergrad
and graduate level.
00;51;23;16 - 00;51;25;25
Of course, there are
00;51;25;25 - 00;51;27;24
sort of a short
00;51;27;24 - 00;51;31;00
that we talk about like a five year
bam diff program,
00;51;31;00 - 00;51;32;24
which would traditionally
take seven years.
00;51;32;24 - 00;51;38;08
And some schools have collaborated
to find ways to reduce the redundancies
00;51;38;28 - 00;51;42;09
across degree programs
and have dual credit
00;51;42;26 - 00;51;45;14
options, such that
00;51;45;14 - 00;51;48;00
some of those classes
are counting in both directions.
00;51;48;00 - 00;51;51;00
That's really interesting to me
and I think
00;51;52;10 - 00;51;56;28
an important part of the future
so that we can provide pathways for people
00;51;56;28 - 00;52;00;24
and more efficient ways for people
to to go deeper in their education.
00;52;01;24 - 00;52;02;17
Really interesting.
00;52;02;17 - 00;52;04;09
Thanks for those thoughts.
00;52;04;09 - 00;52;08;16
For those listeners who do check out,
not in the way
00;52;08;16 - 00;52;12;19
that you need to subscribe to it,
but check out the Seminary Now website.
00;52;12;23 - 00;52;17;19
It's an interesting sort of presentation
that does look a lot like a masterclass,
00;52;17;19 - 00;52;18;17
if you're familiar with that
00;52;18;17 - 00;52;22;21
or some of these other online platforms
in terms of production values and stuff.
00;52;22;21 - 00;52;27;03
So really interesting to think about
how much that's going to shape,
00;52;27;10 - 00;52;30;13
particularly people going forward,
their experience of Christian education.
00;52;30;25 - 00;52;33;25
Are these
these platforms like seminary now?
00;52;34;02 - 00;52;35;13
So, Jason, thank you for
00;52;35;13 - 00;52;38;16
joining us on with Faith in Mind
and sharing about your work.
00;52;39;15 - 00;52;40;06
You're very welcome.
00;52;40;06 - 00;52;43;06
Happy to be with you.
00;52;43;20 - 00;52;45;05
Thanks for joining us.
00;52;45;05 - 00;52;48;01
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00;53;04;12 - 00;53;05;18
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