John Terrill

Welcome to the With Faith in Mind podcast and our current series, Christian Education at the Crossroads. I'm one of the hosts, John Terrell, and I am excited about today's conversation, where we explore with a seasoned president what it means to lead a Christian university. Dr. Michael Lindsay, welcome to the podcast.

Michael Lindsay

Thanks so much for having me on, John.

John Terrill

It is great to see you, so appreciative of you. Let me tell our listeners a little bit about Michael. Michael serves as the president of Taylor University, one of the nation's leading Christian universities. Prior to Taylor, Michael was served as a dekate. I'm going to start that over, Jesse. Go for it. Michael serves as the president of Taylor University, one of the nation's leading Christian universities. Prior to Taylor, Michael served for a decade as Gordon College's president, as well as a distinguished member of the sociology faculty at Rice University. He's the author of a, I'm going to start that over. He's the author of several award-winning books, including Faith in the Halls of Power, How Evangelicals Join the American Elite, and View from the Top, an Inside Look at How People empower, see and shape the world. His most recent book, Hinge Moments, Making the Most of Life's Transitions was released in 2021. Michael's been married for over 25 years to his wife Rebecca. She's an accomplished teacher and speaker and they have three beautiful daughters. Michael, we are again so glad to have you to the show. This is going to be a really fun conversation. I Michael, I think we met. I think it's been I think it was in late 1990s or early 2000s. And I remember I was on the way. I was out of town. I was in my car and I received a call from you. I think you were working on your first book. And at that time, I was working with InterVarsity's National MBA Ministry and you called about trying to make some connections for interviews. And of course, now, you know, everyone, and I would probably be calling you for. introductions but it was really fun at the time and I thought about that today. It goes back probably 25 years.

Michael Lindsay

I think that's right, John. It's fun to see how the Lord keeps people together over the years.

John Terrill

It really is. Well, one reason we thought you would be such a fantastic guest is that you can help us understand Christian higher education from the inside. You're responsible for leading one of the most prestigious Christian colleges and you do that at a very high level. And you've done that at two institutions. And so I'd like to start with this question. What does a college Christian college president do? Just give me a short snapshot of of what you do in your role.

Michael Lindsay

Well, it's kind of like being mayor of a small town. There are ceremonial functions that you do almost every day. You show up, you speak, you greet, you smile, you make people feel welcome. You get a chance to deal with a full range of issues from legal to finance to strategy, but also you get a chance to be an individual contributor where you're writing speeches or helping to craft a particular direction or focus for the university. and you're oftentimes a representative of the institution to many different constituents. I think one of the things that I love about being a college president is just the intellectual variety of the job. I get to do so many different things in a given day, and it is never boring as a college president.

John Terrill

I can imagine. Well, I know two consistent passions of your life have been leadership and Christian higher education. You've been committed to those for a really long time. How did these themes merge as you considered the possibility of becoming a college president?

Michael Lindsay

When I finished up at Princeton with my doctorate, I applied for a variety of tenure track faculty jobs and was honored and delighted to land one of those spots at Rice University, a top 20 research institution in Houston. My wife is originally from Texas, so getting back to the Lone Star State was very exciting for her and for all of our family. I honestly thought I could spend the rest of my career at Rice and loved it. But as I was there, for several years, I increasingly became uncomfortable with the faculty culture in particular, where I would see faculty colleagues who made sport of trying to take on, particularly conservative Christian students. And it was not the kind of posture of we're going to help, you know, widen their thinking or deepen their consideration. It was a game for some of my faculty colleagues. And I increasingly thought, I don't want to be spending my life dedicated to that kind of project. I want to invest in the next generation. As a graduate of a Christian university, I had seen the transformative effect that can happen at that kind of an institution. So when the search firm reached out about the opportunity to assume the presidency at Gordon College, I really thought that was a crazy idea. Couldn't imagine doing it. I was way too early in my career. not nearly enough experience, but I really was open to saying, how could I dedicate my time and my energy to investing in the next generation? And I am a huge fan of Christian higher education. I think it is the global gold standard for the kind of transformation that young people need. And so I'm really excited about it. And anytime you're working with young people, you're always thinking about emerging issues of leadership. So it's been a great fit for me over the last 12 years.

John Terrill

Yeah, indeed it has been. Thank you for that background. That's really helpful. I knew a little bit of that story But it's it's really interesting to hear how those two passions have come together and really it's been your life's vocation for the last 15 years So so thank you for that. I'd like to play on this theme of Hinge moments Michael you've written a book about this and we're gonna put all your books in our show notes And I just I want to make a statement right out of the the gate here that that Michaels research on leadership is fantastic read his books, really appreciated them, draw on them regularly, and so we'll put all the details in. But your most recent book, Hinge Moments, you know you really explore this idea of significant life transitions, and you explore it in the lives of leaders. But I want to ask you the question, what about institutions? Institutions have lives as well. They have, I would even liken to say, spiritual that work even in the book of Revelation or Isaiah. You know they seem to show up in some ways in eternity in the new heaven and the new earth. I want you to think about hinge moments for institutions but in the context of Christian higher education. What is a key hinge moment today that Christian higher education finds itself in?

Michael Lindsay

The premise of Hinge Moments is that most of our lives are spent in what we might call settled times. Anne Swidler from Berkeley has this idea that they're settled in unsettled times. And it is those moments of disruption that shape the course of the rest of our lives. So you know, you live, an average American lives 80 years of life. That's you know, let's call it 37, 40 million minutes that you might have over a lifetime. But really, your life is shaped by 12 to 20 individual minutes. The minute you are born, the minute you meet your spouse, the minute your first child is born, the minute you lose a loved one for the first time, these become disproportionately influential for the rest of your life. In just the same way it applies for institutions as it does for individuals. So in higher education, probably one of the most significant hinge moments would certainly have been the decision around COVID-19 and the decision to pivot to remote learning. The first time all of higher education basically said, we're gonna try a digital method for instructional delivery and we're learning lots from that experiment, but I'd say that was a significant hinge moment. The next one that we can already see, because the thing about hinge moments, Some of them occur by surprise, like COVID-19,

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

and others you can see years in advance.

John Terrill

Right.

Michael Lindsay

And so we are on the cusp of what's called the demographic cliff. The cohort of young people who were born in the wake of the financial recession in 2008, 2009, they will turn 18 years old in 2026.

John Terrill

Right.

Michael Lindsay

And that will be the smallest cohort of college-bound students in over 50 years in the United States. So what that means is that a lot of institutions are going to see significant drops of their incoming student numbers. And that has significant impact because 99% of institutions higher learning in the United States are tuition driven. They depend upon students showing up in order to pay their bills.

John Terrill

Yes.

Michael Lindsay

And so it's gonna be an industry wide hinge moment that we will all experience. And I'd say that smart institutions are preparing for it now.

John Terrill

Yeah, that's really helpful. I know, Michael, that you just returned from a three-day conference, I believe, with other presidents of Christian colleges and universities, and I'm curious, sort of following up on these hinge moments and sort of the crossroads that Christian colleges find themselves in. What were your colleagues most interested in talking about? Like, what were the formal conversations, and then what were the coffee-earned conversations? Where are folks degree of hopefulness.

Michael Lindsay

Well, I think that the anxiety probably relates to enrollment issues. It relates to the regulatory environment. So the Department of Education is expected to release a new set of guidance regulations around Title IX compliance

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

this summer, and so with an expected implementation by August. So that's a big deal. And we will be interested to see what that looks like and what the implications are. But I would also say the side conversations really relate to the kinds of things that every organizational leader is facing right now. It is really hard to recruit and retain talent.

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

So that has been an issue for us. I'd say most Christian institutions are recognizing that they want their campus to look more like the kingdom of God. And so we're not nearly as diverse as we need to be. And so finding diverse students and diverse faculty and staff. is a key challenge in trying to help make your campus a welcoming environment. All of these are key things that we have to do. So we're working on it. And I'm encouraged when I see the quality of leadership across Christian institutions in the U.S. It's interesting because there are many different forms of Christian NGOs, faith-based organizations that do social service delivery, that help support missions and evangelism, pair church But I believe Christian colleges and universities are the most sophisticated, complex, and advanced Christian

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

institutions in the world today because we have to deal with a full range of issues. And oftentimes, we employ hundreds, if not thousands of people. And in the process of that, you're serving thousands, if not tens of thousands of constituents. So we have to figure out how to, in many ways, help lead the wider Christian community. to be faithful organizations in an increasingly volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous world.

John Terrill

Yeah, I think that's you know, the Academy is a place of a lot of change and a lot of crosswinds. And then the Christian the Christian Academy with all of its unique challenges, catching some of the crosswinds of faith and sort of the larger pluralistic society, I think probably even complicates matters. So I can imagine it's very, very complex. You said something about Title Nine. And I'd love for you to explain that for our listeners and why that new legislation is so important. or could be so important.

Michael Lindsay

The Higher Education Authorization Act, which was passed in the late 60s, put in place a series of expectations of how institutions would conduct their business in order to receive federal student financial aid. So federal loans, federal grants, things like that. And Title IX specifically refers to a prohibition against sex discrimination. Title IX has become a political hot potato as Republicans and Democrats have sought to use the Title IX guidance as a way of articulating their understanding about issues of human sexuality. So whether it relates to LGBTQ issues or male-female relationships or non-binary gender dynamics,

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

Title IX has become a real issue. And I'd say it started with the Obama administration. continued with the Trump administration and now we're seeing it in the Biden administration. So the regulations that we have today were put in place by President Trump and his Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos and it remains to be seen what President Biden will do but we believe there will be some adjustments and it relates to due process. So if a woman makes an standard of proof that's required in order to determine that there was a Title IX violation.

John Terrill

Yeah.

Michael Lindsay

So these become important ways in which institutions live into their callings to be a place where everybody feels welcome and cared for, but it can also reflect wider political sensibilities around transgender rights, LGBTQ, and sex dynamics among different genders.

John Terrill

So that's really helpful, Michael, way beyond what I imagined were the issues. I'm just curious, how much time? I mean, you've talked about Title IX. You know, certainly Christian colleges, universities in general are trying to diversify, you know, strengthen DEI initiatives with faculty, students, and really leaning into that. How much time do you actually spend on these issues? I mean, I'm just curious. I imagine this could occupy a lot of your mental space. These are real challenges. And from your perspective, you know, how much time is devoted to creating clarity around mission, you know, thinking strategically about diversifying your student and faculty base, and then just trying to find yourself in the really treacherous waters of trying to navigate all of this legal complexity. What, you know. How does this constitute your week in and week out?

Michael Lindsay

I'd say most institutions like Taylor will have a general counsel, either in-house or out-of-house, who will provide legal advice to the university. And depending on, you know, the various legal issues that the institution is facing, that person could work 40 hours a week or maybe five hours a week.

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

But probably all of us have some kind of legal issues at any given moment that we are engaged with. We also most likely, certainly a school the size of Taylor, would have somebody who provides leadership for thinking around biblical unity and diversity kind of issues.

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

So just as businesses have chief diversity officers, lots of universities and institutions have those. I'd say Christian institutions think about diversity in a different way than the run-of-the-mill corporate environment. But all of us really want to make sure that we are creating an environment where hospitality and Christian fellowship can thrive and that the typical dividing points, whatever they might be, are minimized within your community. So oftentimes we'll have a vice president or a senior advisor to the president who will provide that kind of leadership. And then most of us also have someone who helps oversee government relations, external relations. something with government and regulatory entities. And for some of us, that can be a full-time role, and others, it can be a part-time role. All three of those functions are things that report up eventually to the president, and the president gets involved with them. And if you put all of those together, that probably could represent 10 to 25% of my time at any given moment. So I am in touch with elected officials. probably every week on different issues. I'm certainly working on recruiting and retaining diverse students, faculty, and staff every single week.

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

And I'm probably at least consulted, if not directly involved, in legal issues every week also.

John Terrill

You mentioned that Christian colleges and universities think a little bit differently about the issue of diversity. I wonder if you could characterize that for our listeners. How do you think about it at Taylor? How are you communicating that vision to students and other stakeholders, faculty, alumni, other stakeholders within the Taylor community?

Michael Lindsay

A few decades ago, the Human Rights Campaign really decided to make a play to put LGBTQ issues as an issue of diversity. And so they began to speak of sexual minorities referring to lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer individuals. And so that then became sort of a larger expectation that if you're dealing with diversity around the typical areas of race and ethnicity. you might also need to think about it around gender and sexuality. Christian institutions like Taylor have a traditional sexual ethic, so we're not necessarily advocating for the kinds of diversity initiatives that corporate America is around LGBTQ issues. At the same time, we all want to be careful, thoughtful, biblical in our approach, recognizing that we do have students and constituents who might identify with same-sex attraction or maybe even say that they are LGBTQ in one way or another. But our understanding of diversity and our commitment to diversity is really grounded in a larger biblical understanding that all humans are created in the image of God and therefore are worthy of dignity. But it also shapes the kind of initiatives and programs you put in place to help support.

John Terrill

Yeah. Thank you, Michael. Very helpful. I wanna turn now to, we've talked a lot about the complexity. Starting to add up the hours in your week, and I'm like, I don't know where you find time to spend time with family and just in recreation and so forth. I imagine you have a dashboard of sorts. There are certain instruments that you watch in your institution. Maybe you think about them as kind of leading indicators or lagging indicators. you just watch instruments. But I liken this to a dashboard in a car. We can't pay attention to 30 different things, but we can pay attention to four or five things. What are the four or five instruments in your institution that you're paying attention to? And my guess is that's also representative of broader Christian higher education, but maybe it's different. So I'll invite you to comment on that as well.

Michael Lindsay

Each of us look for creative ways to be able to measure fidelity to Christian mission. And for an institution like Taylor, we care about the spiritual transformation of our students. So we look at things like engagement in chapel. Our chapel program is voluntary, but

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

chapel every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday is packed with students in every worship environment. But that would be a way in which we are trying to say, How are our students engaging with the spiritual offerings we have at Taylor and how is that shaping the lives of our students? We look at educational outcomes, so markers of academic excellence, whether it's performance of our students on external tests or recognition of forms of student learning occurring in the classroom. We're always looking for measures of assessment that allow us to get a feeling of how's it going in the classroom, because that's our bread and butter and what we're focused

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

on. Institutionally, we pay attention to measures of revenue source, whether that's fundraising success or enrollment measures of prospective students and accepted students. One of the measures that's true for every institution in the United States is what's known as the yield statistic. So if you admit 100 students, how many of those 100 actually

John Terrill

Right.

Michael Lindsay

enroll in your school at the start of the academic year? And the very best yield statistic is Harvard, which is just over 80%. And I'd say, you know, Christian institutions, if they can get 30 or 40% are feeling very strong about their offerings. So those are the kinds of things that we pay attention to.

John Terrill

Yeah, that's really helpful. Thank you. You made a transition, a really important hinge moment during COVID. I think you left an institution, you left Gordon, I think at the beginning of COVID and kind of had a little season, not much time, but a little bit of a season of transition and then shifted to leadership, your presidency at Taylor. What was the most important lesson you learned? in that season of navigating two institutions during COVID.

Michael Lindsay

Well, I didn't leave a very long period of time. So I served at Gordon until June of 2021, and then I began at Taylor in August of 21. So I

John Terrill

Okay.

Michael Lindsay

did have a six week break,

John Terrill

Okay,

Michael Lindsay

which was

John Terrill

that wasn't

Michael Lindsay

glorious.

John Terrill

much. Yeah.

Michael Lindsay

But part of actually my own being at peace with the idea of stepping away from the Gordon presidency is that we have found a way to weather the pandemic. and I knew the institution was gonna be in good shape. I had been wrestling with this sense of restlessness in my life and wondering if maybe God was calling me to do something different, which is really hard because I thought I was gonna be at Gordon for decades and I had been working really hard on a variety of initiatives. But as I began to get different signposts along the way, and it probably was over the course of a year,

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

I finally reached the conclusion, my wife and I went out to Nantucket for a week. and took long walks on the beach and prayed. And at the end of that week, we were convinced that this indeed was gonna be the end of my tenure at Gordon. And I went and told my board and I said, that's crazy, you just need a little bit of a break, let's sign you up for another five years. And I said, no, I really think God's calling me to do something different. The weird thing was that I didn't know what he was calling me to do. So

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

I was stepping out a little bit on faith, not certain what would happen. And so... I announced to the community I'd be leaving at the end of the academic year and then really began exploring possibilities and I'm very thrilled that I was able to land at Taylor and have found that to be just an extraordinary place of service. But it's very rare for a college president to land a second presidency

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

and I consider it a great gift. When you're the president of a Christian college like Gordon or Taylor. It's in some ways like being an NFL quarterback. You leave one team and there are only 31 other spots you could possibly go, and the likelihood of them needing a quarterback that year with your passing strength, those are not things that oftentimes happen. But in God's providence, it did work out. I do think that COVID-19, however, made a number of people more open to change than they had ever considered. And I had more time for introspection. So I wrote the book Hinge Moments during the pandemic. I've been working on it for about two years, but I really, I finished the book in the pandemic. And it was while writing this book, which I originally intended for high school students who are graduating or maybe college graduates, as I was writing it, I realized, well, this book like speaks to me. It like describes where I am. And I actually experienced a hinge moment while writing the book.

John Terrill

Wow. Yeah. And I. I want to do a little interlude here because I one of the things I found so fascinating and helpful in your book was talking about this time of between and betwixt or betwixt in between where you're you're leaving a community and you don't have the strength of the community you're leaving. And yet you haven't arrived in this new community and you don't have the strength of of all those new friendships and where you most need support, not being sure where to look institutionally for support. I wonder if you could speak to that. And I think it's really interesting that you experienced that, that actual liminal space during COVID, which probably complicated it or amplified it.

Michael Lindsay

It did, for sure. Yeah, so I met my wife in an upper level Latin class. So some people say French is the language of love, but for us it was Latin.

John Terrill

Okay.

Michael Lindsay

And the Latin word for threshold or doorframe, liman, is where we get the word liminal from. And it is this sense that you are not in one room or another, but you're standing in between. And when you're in that betwixt and between moment, You don't have the sources of support you've been relying upon because you're becoming disassociated from your community, but you're not yet settled in your new place. And so that's why we have to nurture and support relationships, you know, family, close friends, no matter what in life, you're going to need those people to come alongside you. So you want to always be nurturing those. And I do think that we have to rely upon a small network of folks who can remind us who we are. and the calling we've had in our life, and to help us to prepare for what comes next. I was blessed that I had a wife who went alongside me, and Rebecca and I, during that entire liminal phase, which was about six months in length, we actually took what we called the discernment walk every single day. We did that seven days a week for six months on end. And sometimes it would be a short little walk for 10 minutes in the snow, and other times it would be a... 90 minute walk along the beach, but we really wanted to commit that time to praying and to discerning what God would do in our life in this particular liminal moment. I think everybody's gotta find ways to develop the kind of spiritual practices that support them when you go into those

John Terrill

Yeah.

Michael Lindsay

liminal moments. So, I think that's the key to being a Christian. I think that's the key to being a Christian.

John Terrill

Yeah, I know you've been really intentional about that. You've also been really intentional to build a community of presidents, college presidents that and you formed a circle. It's a small circle. It's not this big conference you were at. It's a handful of folks. I wonder if you could speak to the importance of that community in your life.

Michael Lindsay

Well, I think when you're in leadership, it's difficult to develop deep, close, personal friendships with people who are in the same organization. Because while you can be really close and good friends at the end of the day, you do wear the hat that has to make decisions about budgets and around personnel. And so that changes the relationship. But if you can find peers who are in similar positions, that can become a really great and important network. And so a group of us, I think maybe 10 or 12 of us, went through a weekend retreat that a ministry called Generous Giving puts on, called A Journey of Generosity.

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

It was designed to encourage in us a spirit of generosity.

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

We enjoyed each other's fellowship and found we just laughed together, had lots of things that were well connected, and decided what would it be if we just got together next year, same time,

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

and we just sort of hung out and maybe shared our lives together. we could bring our spouses. And so we did that. And that particular group has met in Colorado every May or June for, I think we're approaching our 12th year.

John Terrill

Wow.

Michael Lindsay

So that's a really great network of support and encouragement. And we've prayed for one another, we've encouraged one another, we've walked alongside challenging moments with one another, we celebrated each other's successes. And it's the kind of fellowship that I think really makes a key difference.

John Terrill

Yeah, thank you. That's that sounds like a really impactful group, but I appreciate you sharing that. I want to turn a little bit and speak more to institutions and the institution of Christian higher education. You've led Christian colleges in two different in two very different states. I mean, in some ways, maybe they're not that different, but you led a Christian college in the state of Massachusetts and you're now in Indiana. I'm curious if you could just speak to the role that state policy plays in your leadership. You know, how do you relate to state legislatures, to key constituents in the state? We talked a little bit about some of the federal policy, but I'm curious what you've learned about navigating different state systems and how that has influenced your leadership.

Michael Lindsay

Well, there's usually two models of state government in the U.S. There's the California model or the Texas model. California model is one of extensive regulation, a very strong state apparatus that puts parameters and is designed to try and protect individuals from actions of organizations. And I'd say there is a hermeneutic of suspicion of organizations in the California model. The Texas model is one that puts a lot more freedom for organizations and a lot more flexibility and it's more of a hermeneutic of trust in organizations. It says we assume you're going to do the right thing unless we have reason to believe otherwise. The California model says we assume you're going to do the wrong thing unless we learn otherwise. And Massachusetts probably is more like the California model and Indiana is probably more like the Texas model. And I will just say, I have found it to be liberating to be in a state environment where the governor, the congressional delegation, the state legislature really believes in what we're doing and is incredibly supportive. Massachusetts is a very regulated state and despite it being, you know, the global capital for higher education, just the density of institutions of higher learning, it's not a place that... Spurs, creativity, and innovation. It's one that has done a number of extraordinary things and has legendary institutions like MIT and Harvard. And at the same time, I have just found that the Indiana model has been a terrific ecosystem for innovation and creativity. And I certainly feel much more energized here in my leadership because I feel like that there's opportunity for us to try out new things, pilot ideas, and create great innovation. I think it is not surprising that Purdue, which is seen across the world as one of the most innovative universities under leadership of Mitch Daniels, is a flagship institution in Indiana. So that shows to you why I think that this particular model is a healthier model for true academic entrepreneurship.

John Terrill

And I'm an Indiana University graduate and I'm even as painful as it is for me to hear you compliment Purdue, I'm going to accept that and receive it. And

Michael Lindsay

Okay.

John Terrill

I think you're right. I think you're right. Mitch Daniels has been a good example and Purdue has been really innovative. So, Michael, that's really helpful. I've never. I've never gotten that take. And so it's really interesting to hear you talk about how states approach higher education and institutions more broadly. I want to you're someone who's benefited from non-religious institutions, secular institutions, places of higher learning. You've also clearly benefited and served Christian colleges. And you've actually spoken, you know, really eloquently about the importance of Christian higher education. I'd love for you to give me the in your mind the best case for why one should attend a Christian college and then I want to I want to ask you in a nutshell to give me the best case for why a student might consider attending a strong secular or non-religious institution.

Michael Lindsay

Well, let me start with the latter. I think that the reason that a Christian student might choose a secular institution is either because they are drawn to a particular academic program or a set of academic offerings that they don't feel like that they can get at a Christ-centered institution. And so part of going to university is vocational preparation. So if you have the opportunity to... study piano performance at Juilliard, and that opens up the kind of vocational career that you're interested in. I understand why you might choose that kind of an institution. I also think that the Lord calls certain individuals to be like Daniel in Babylon. And so we certainly recognize that the call of God transcends any of our reasons, and we want to be responsive to the calling of God. So that's certainly a reason why you might do that. I'll tell you the reason that my wife and I hope and pray that our daughters go to a Christ-centered institution. And it's why I believe so deeply in what we're doing. There are literally thousands of academic studies that show the kind of formation that you get in the college years is best created, curated, and completed in the kind of moral community. you find on campuses like Taylor University. We are and we become the people we surround ourselves with. And so the company you keep is so vital. It's more important than the subjects you learn. It's more important than the grades you get. It's more important than the internships you land. It's who are you becoming because of your peer network, especially in an environment where Graduate offerings become important credentials for your ultimate professional development. So you're not oftentimes going to college to master a skill or a trade in the way that you are when you're going to business school, law school, medical school, or some other applied field. Instead you're making a decision about college or university because you're actually trying to become an individual. person. And the ecosystem of a school like Taylor is just so rich and fertile and positive for your soul's formation. It's why I decided I had to leave the ecosystem of Rice and go to a school like Gordon or Taylor because I wanted my life to really be invested in helping to shape that particular next generation of emerging Christian leaders.

John Terrill

Yeah. Jesse, can you still hear? I just lost volume. OK. So Michael, you've given a really strong apologetic for why Christian college, why a Christian university. How do you help students and families discern among Christian colleges and universities? I'm assuming you offer that talk regularly, you know, you give that advice regularly, and I think you're probably fair to your peer institutions. Take us into that conversation. What are one or two things you like to highlight for students or families as they're trying to make a choice among Christian colleges?

Michael Lindsay

Well, every institution has what we call a hidden curriculum. It's rarely articulated, but you pick it up if you're on campus for 24 hours. So I oftentimes will encourage students to spend a Friday or a Saturday night on the campus to see what is the student culture really like. Some Christian colleges, and Taylor's an example of this, students are here, they are all in, and the campus culture is the... centerpiece of their lives for those four years. Other campuses are in different kind of locations, particularly urban contexts where students might live on campus but their life is spent in coffee shops, restaurants, internships in the city, that that becomes much more a part of their orienting principle. And so you just get very different kind of student experience but you learn that on Friday or Saturday night. Do the students stay on campus through the weekend or do they go home? And then how does that shape you if you have a car or don't have a car, if you live close to the campus or don't live close to the campus? So that kind of context I think is really important. That'd be one element. A second element is I think you have to really get to know representative faculty members. If you're a prospective student, I oftentimes say, write an email to a faculty member in the department where you're hoping to study. and see how they interact with you. Do they offer to meet you on Zoom? Do they invite you to come by and visit one of their classes when you come to campus? Those kinds of interactions just speak to the faculty-student relationship writ large. So those kinds of approaches can be helpful. Third thing I tell people is that they gotta pay attention to what are the posters that are on the bulletin board? What are the posts that people are putting on Instagram, Twitter, and social media? How are they actually seeing... the way that the institution prioritizes their resources and their activities. And I think there's really great value of just being an armchair anthropologist. You come and sit in the coffee bar on campus and listen over here the conversations. Are those the kind of conversations you'd like to be a part of or not? I think you can learn a lot by just opening your eyes, listening and meeting people on the campus environment. And through that, you begin to see every campus has a unique and different personality. And you get to get a feel of if you're at the right kind of place and an environment where you'd be really happy. This is a small example. When I came to Taylor, I realized Taylor is a community where people love the institution and are joyful and loud about that support.

John Terrill

Hmm.

Michael Lindsay

Not

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

every institution is loud, but Taylor is. And that kind of energy I love,

John Terrill

Yeah.

Michael Lindsay

I find it exciting, but other people, they might want something, you know, more laid back or more sedate. And so that may not, Taylor may not be the right kind of place, but you learn that when you come spend a Friday or Saturday night on campus, hang out in the Student Center, visit a couple of classes, meet some of our students and faculty.

John Terrill

Yeah, you talk about that actually in your book, Hinge Moments, you talk about the seven stages of a transition, and I think one of the early stages, it's been a while, is discernment. And so you're really doing research. And so in some ways, I think your response, your answer is to take seriously stage one.

Michael Lindsay

Exactly. Yep.

John Terrill

Yeah.

Michael Lindsay

You got to be attentive and look for signposts. And you know, I always tell prospective students and their families, you ought to pray that what you experience on your campus visit is representative of the institution because it's entirely possible. You know, it's so funny because average college student makes decisions about the college on two factors, the weather on the day that they visited the campus

John Terrill

Right.

Michael Lindsay

and the personality of the tour guide. both

John Terrill

Yeah.

Michael Lindsay

of which are terrible indications of whether it's gonna be the right fit. So you gotta just say, okay, Lord, I'm not gonna pay attention to those things. Make me attentive to the things that you think will help me to understand. Is this the right place for me?

John Terrill

Yeah, that's really good. And I know colleges invest a lot in their tour guides and now I know why. It's hard to control the weather, but you can, you know, exert some level of agency over your tour guides.

Michael Lindsay

That's right.

John Terrill

That's really good. Okay, I want to go into a little bit of rapid fire response here. And some of this actually might be a little hard because I'm going to ask you some personal questions about leadership. But I'd like to start with this question. What's the most challenging thing about leading a Christian college or university?

Michael Lindsay

You don't have the freedom of thinking out loud because whenever you're in a context, people assume that your ideas are fully formed and that you have weighed a variety of considerations when in fact you're really just trying to explore possibilities. You really don't have that freedom when you're in the leadership seat.

John Terrill

Interesting and for extroverts or external processors that could be really challenging.

Michael Lindsay

Indeed.

John Terrill

Yeah, yeah. What is the most gratifying thing about leading a Christian college?

Michael Lindsay

Man, you get to see transformation that families, churches, schools have been investing for 17, 18 years in these students, but they come to college and in those four years, their lives are completely transformed and you get to see the fruit of the investments other people have made and you get to water and add a little sun and it germinates and it grows and develops and the kind of transformation that occurs between a student's freshman and senior year. is oftentimes night and day, and you have a front row seat to experiencing that and to feel the gratification of playing a role in that development.

John Terrill

Yeah, yeah, that's really, really, really, really cool. What's the most important discipline that you've put in place to keep you on track as a leader?

Michael Lindsay

I think every leader has to build systems of accountability in their life. So my wife has access to all of my electronic resources. She has all my passwords. She can read my emails. She sees my calendar. I have a chief of staff who tracks me on his phone. And so a couple of times a day, he'll just check and see, find a friend, see where I am to make sure that... where I'm supposed to be, that I'm not off track. I think systems of accountability that you build as a regular rhythm are important disciplines in our life. So that would say accountability is one we have to put ourselves under, and it becomes an important way of putting the right kind of guardrails on your life. Now, of course, I also believe that an important part of that are spiritual disciplines. So I'm a big believer in regular meditation on scripture and daily prayer. but also spiritual practices like solitude, silence, and Sabbath keeping have become important touchstones in my own journey.

John Terrill

Yeah. What have you learned, Michael, about channeling your own disappointment, frustration or anger? And I and I ask that question because I think one of the things I've discovered as a leader is that that it's really important that I don't project out in ways that that hurt others, that, you know, leaders have to absorb pain. They sometimes receive. You know, people project things on to leaders. They assume things of leaders. And part of it is to kind of absorb that and then find healthy ways to. to process and not sort of spill it back out in harmful ways into the community. I'm curious, you know, you've had such senior positions and you've studied leadership, what have you learned about processing your own disappointment, frustration, even anger at times, you know, rightful anger?

Michael Lindsay

Well, I think that probably one of the most important things to remember is that the leader always carries around everybody else's accumulated grievances against the institution or the organization.

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

So you're, you're carrying that weight. So you've got to find ways to process that. I do think having small groups of peers that can help you, I think make a huge difference. I think spiritual disciplines, I also think healthy living kinds of practices are really important. early on in being a college president. I mean, I can work 24 hours a day, and I've always prided myself on my work ethic, but I learned actually I needed to build discipline so that I would get seven or eight hours of sleep a night

John Terrill

Right.

Michael Lindsay

for me to be successful over the long call. And that actually requires like self-control and saying,

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

I'm going to put my email away and I'm now going to rest. So

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

those kinds of things I think really matter, but. One thing that I've come to learn more fully is the value of having practices that help you channel those negative emotions

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

into ways that don't eat away at your soul.

John Terrill

Mm.

Michael Lindsay

So I used to never have an issue with anxiety. And there was a turning point in my leadership career where anxiety became a way in which I was channeling some of those negative emotions that you were talking

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

about.

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

And... So Philippians 4 became very important spiritually for me and building some kind of practices that I think have been important. Contemplative prayer

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

is a important spiritual practice that the desert fathers, you know, almost 2,000 years ago were practicing that had been part of the church tradition. And they actually, they actually literally help rewire our brains.

John Terrill

Mm-hmm.

Michael Lindsay

so that the neurons fire in different ways so

John Terrill

Right.

Michael Lindsay

that you don't have to live with worry and anxiety in the same way. So finding those kinds of spiritual resources, I think make a huge difference over the long haul.

John Terrill

Yeah, thank you for that. That's really helpful. A lot to think about there. I wonder if as we turn toward the end of our time together, if you could reflect, if you'd be willing to share one of the hardest leadership experiences or challenges that you've had to face. And then a key insight from that time.

Michael Lindsay

I think all of the key leadership challenges that really keep you up at night are people problems. I have agonized over hiring decisions. And then when you hire somebody and it turns out it does not work out the way that you expected, there's guilt that you made the wrong choice. There's disappointment in yourself because you didn't see things that you should have seen. And then there's anger both in how you have responded to different... circumstances or situations and how the other person has as well. And so I can think about a particular hiring decision that I made that upon reflection probably was not the right move and it took me a long time to come to that conclusion and I still deeply regret the way in which things unfolded and I think that I learned the leader really does have to resist the temptation to fill a position until they have found the right person or individual. You need to have counselors, advisors, friends, and colleagues who help give additional color commentary. Too often, we hire people who are like ourselves, when, in fact, you need to hire people who compliment your strengths, not reinforce your strengths. And I I missed that on a couple of hiring decisions that hopefully I've learned from, but I would say that those were real challenges. And in the end, it created, yeah, deep challenges that still to this day represent regret, disappointment, and sadness in my life. So I think people problems are always the hardest, and you don't have the freedom to really say what you think publicly, but you also recognize, man, you know, I contributed to these difficulties, and so you're disappointed with yourself. And you also have to always, the tough thing about the leadership, about being the leader, is that you always have to be the more mature person. When in fact, you don't wanna be the more mature person, you know?

John Terrill

Right.

Michael Lindsay

And so that, I think, people issues are always the hardest.

John Terrill

Boy, Michael, I really appreciate that. I resonate. And I have found the only place I, certainly my faith has provided, God has provided solace and encouragement in those moments, but coming alongside, having friends, leaders who have also faced those same challenges has been really helpful for me. Because I think the reality is that we've all made. decisions that haven't worked out with respect to people and being able to to connect with others who have Are being open and honest about those decisions when they've gone well and when they haven't gone so well That's that's that's been really helpful for me to be able to have those some of those conversations privately with other leaders Who have faced the the same circumstances? Yeah, I really appreciate you sharing that. So helpful and I think really helpful for our listeners. Well, as we wrap up, I know, Michael, that you're not only an administrator, a president, but you're also a scholar and a very good scholar. And so I'd love to know what you're currently working on. What are you thinking about? Do you have another book in the works? I know that the Platinum Study of Leaders took a long time. I know there were hundreds and hundreds of senior leaders that you interviewed. That's behind you, but I know you're not finished thinking about leadership. So what's next?

Michael Lindsay

Well, a couple of ideas. One is that I'm very intrigued with how we build ecosystems for entrepreneurial energy and how you create the kind of leadership context where entrepreneurs can thrive. So I'm interested in that both at the national public policy level, but also organizational level, and then team dynamic, and even how you draw out entrepreneurial impulses among folks who work in your office. So that's one area I'm really interested in. My oldest daughter has severe special needs. She's 19, but has the cognitive development of probably about a two-year-old. And so parenting Elizabeth, and I describe a little bit of that journey in hinge moments, parenting Elizabeth, where we live on a college campus, but she will never go to college, is an interesting dynamic. And so as someone who spends a lot of time focused on leadership issues and working with high capacity emerging leaders, very talented, smart, sharp, savvy people. I'm also thinking about folks for whom leadership will never be their unique calling, like my daughter Elizabeth. And thinking about how do you build an environment where Elizabeth can thrive and at the same time we can strengthen the leadership capacities of folks who are gonna pursue a lifetime calling in leadership.

John Terrill

Right,

Michael Lindsay

So

John Terrill

right.

Michael Lindsay

I don't really know what that will look like, but I am thinking a little bit about how we help serve, bless, and support the full spectrum of the human endeavor, whether it's folks who will lead a Fortune 500 company or people who will be individual contributors in their own unique way and how their callings are similar to the journey of my own daughter.

John Terrill

Thank you for sharing that. And I'm excited to see where that part of your journey takes you. So important and particularly from someone like you who has been trained in, you know, some of the best institutions and has worked in those settings and to to see the image of God in everyone and and to be committed to that and to want to see the full range of our human family flourishes is really exciting. So I'm really excited for that next Thank you for your leadership. I've seen you with your family, and I know how much you love your family and are committed to them. And so you're a really fine example of someone who leads at a high level but is always committed to the people closest to him, friends and family. And so it's a real model to me. Thank you for the way you're leading at Taylor. As someone who grew up in Indiana, not far from Taylor, I have a friend who grew up in drove by it all the time, went to basketball camp at Taylor as a kid, got super homesick. I remember that and I remember a lot of caring counselors and just having a really great time there and just the impact of Taylor around the world. I'm just thrilled you're there. I'm really proud for the kingdom but also for the state of Indiana. So thank you for your leadership at Taylor University. It's a pleasure being your friend.

Michael Lindsay

Thanks so much, John. Great to be with you.