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Speaker 1

Welcome to the With Faith in Mind podcast. In our current series Christian Education at the Crossroads, I'm one of the hosts, John Terrill, and I am excited about today's conversation with Steve Moore, CEO emeritus of the M.J. Murdock Charitable Trust. We've had many guests in this series but have not yet spoken to a grant maker, and we would be hard pressed to find a better representative than our guest today.

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Speaker 1

Steve, welcome to With Faith in Mind.

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Speaker 2

It is great to be with you. Thanks for including me.

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Speaker 1

It is great to see you. Our listeners won't be able to see you, but you look relaxed, you look comfortable. You don't have a coat and tie on. You've got, you know, a a sweatshirt on. And you look you look dapper but relaxed. How is retirement treating you? I'm sure you've not shut things completely off. You've got a lot of activity.

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Speaker 1

I know you've been traveling, but how has this season been since you formally?

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Speaker 2

You know, it's really been great. It's we had a very purposeful transition and I wrapped up my responsibilities two months ago, but I'm still doing a few projects and also part of the idea was to have more bandwidth to work with leaders, givers and boards. And so that's, you know, we're spending some time and trying to identify how much time to spend in those different areas and what's the right rhythm for this next season of life.

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Speaker 1

Yeah, that's that's great. I want to learn more about what you're working on. And of course, we're going to get a lot of your insight over many, many years serving in it through the foundation, through the trust, but also in higher education. Let me just share this with our listeners and this is really true. This is from the heart.

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Speaker 1

Steve is one of the wisest philanthropic leaders I know. I know many others would say the same as we've talked about. He stepped away, I think formally, although he's been involved. I think last summer he served the trust for 17 years and during that time period, I think I've got these numbers right. The trust distributed or invested more than $800 million through about 500 grants.

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Speaker 1

Most of the grant recipients are in the Pacific Northwest Northwest. Is that right, Steve?

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Speaker 2

Yeah, about two thirds, about 5000 grants, though. And yeah, I'm sorry.

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Speaker 1

Yes, I did. I my notes say 500, But yes, we spoke about that before we went on there. Yes. 5000 grants. So that's 17 years. That's a lot of that's a lot of grant making.

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Speaker 2

The lot. A lot. Yeah.

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Speaker 1

And I know there's lots of lots of components to the work you do. We'll get into the capacity building in the leadership development, all the other dimensions that represent Murdock's work.

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Speaker 2

Yeah, that'll be great.

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Speaker 1

Well, let me offer a little bit more background about Steve, just as we start our conversation here. Prior to his time at Murdock, he served as senior vice president and chief operating officer of Asbury Theological Seminary and also as president of Asbury Foundation. So he was there for a number of years. He also served as vice president for campus life at Baylor University and vice president for campus life at Seattle Pacific University.

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Speaker 1

So, Steve, you've you've really spent your entire career at some level working in higher education, either directly within the academy or supporting the academy through grants, leadership development and capacity building.

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Speaker 2

Yeah, that's it's really an interesting thing. And as I came to the trust, you know, one of the things that I realized is that there have always been four streams running in my life. One of those streams was the ideas that matter. Ideas have consequences and implications. The second thing is that leaders matter and the third would be that the impact of faith and culture, the importance of faith impacting culture and then the fourth thing would be around spiritual formation and human development and how critical that is in the overall development of our lives as leaders.

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Speaker 1

Well, and I know Murdoch's work is very holistic, and so I imagine that was a wonderful place to to exercise those four streams of interest and passion. I want to get I want to dive into this because there's a lot to talk about. But I also want to say that, you know, you've you've been really committed to your family over the years as well.

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Speaker 1

You're married to San and you have five adult children and three grandchildren. I know that's an important part of your life as well. And I'm imagining that you're that you're getting to spend a bit more time maybe with the grandchildren and probably with your children as well.

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Speaker 2

Yeah, we've really been very intentional about that. I cannot imagine having gone through life without all of my family and having been incredibly blessed that we just love being together and we do great adventures together.

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Speaker 1

I imagine you do. And you're still residing in Vancouver, Washington, or near Vancouver.

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Speaker 2

I actually live in Portland, Oregon, and then work. The Trust is in Vancouver, Washington, just across the river from Portland.

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Speaker 1

It's a beautiful place. I was just actually out at the Murdoch Charitable Trust, so we'll talk a little bit about that. Is my first trip to the to the Trust. So I was out there, I don't know, three or four weeks ago. Well, Steve, I wonder if you could paint a picture of the work of the M.J. Murdoch Charitable Trust.

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Speaker 1

Just just, you know, kind of in a few minutes, the broad strokes about what the trust does, what it seeks to to accomplish across the Pacific Northwest.

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Speaker 2

Yeah, the it's like living a liberal arts college experience every day. The day of the truth. We work in arts and culture, health, human services, education and science, research and education. So you can see it's very broad in that sense. The mission is to nurture and enrich the educational, cultural, social and spiritual life of individuals, families and communities.

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Speaker 2

So what we've done is try to say to ourselves, what's the best expression of how we fulfill that mission in those various sectors in which we work, and then try to do that in a holistic and embodied kind of a way?

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Speaker 1

Yeah. Many of our listeners are people of Christian faith, but probably not all of our listeners. I know The Trust has walked this really wonderful line of serving communities and nonprofits, faith based nonprofits, but also broader civic and educational initiatives. I wonder if you could elaborate on that and and the the nuance of that work, the challenges and kind of the the real benefits of doing that work, being able to bridge across faith communities and communities that would be just broader.

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Speaker 2

Like this is a great question. And, you know, sadly in our culture, there's fissure lines that, you know, go through the relationships. But the trust, I would say, recognizes that in every one of those sectors, arts and culture, whatever it may be, there are faith based organizations that are doing great work and oftentimes non faith based and faith based don't even know about each other or necessarily they relate.

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Speaker 2

And so because part of what we try to do is honored donor intent, we try to live into the community in the way that the community is fully present, and that includes faith based and non faith based people that are doing the kind of things that nurture and enrich the educational, cultural, social and spiritual life of individuals, families and communities.

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Speaker 2

And so we just that's what we're trying to connect and be involved in. And unfortunately, many foundations discriminate against faith based organizations. And we've tried to really, in a sense, bring them together to say it's all part of the community, let's work together in these ways.

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Speaker 1

Yeah. Steve, I'd love to hear you articulate the role of place, the role of place in the life of the the trust. I know you think very carefully about particular geographies. You think very carefully about neighborhoods and communities. What role does plays play in in the trust's work?

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Speaker 2

Yeah, it's it's very critical. And, you know, the Pacific Northwest is a unique region of the country. We have to what you might call purple states, two blue states and one red state.

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Speaker 1

Mm hmm.

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Speaker 2

And it and yet the area in many ways could be almost better represented by urban, suburban and rural. And because in some ways, rural areas are more familiar, more similar than are the others. And it's this fragmentation or disconnectedness that oftentimes challenges the concept of place. And so I think it's a matter of really working to say what are the kinds of things that help communities thrive and regions thrive.

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Speaker 2

And we know that there's at least four things that are very important to that health. Is there some health, you know, thing that's located youth, a youth organization, something that's there, a historic sense and arts, kind of a unique arts thing and education. So those four things is that we try to really nurture and kind of bring along build capacity of communities by building capacity of organizations that serve those communities.

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Speaker 1

Yeah, that's really true. Even at the training that I attended, I serve on a board and I was there to help to attend training on development, how to raise funds and to build good relationships with donors. And so I've been through training, training that's been similar over the years. But there is really something unique about the way the trust presents that that material and the kind of community that forms around that content.

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Speaker 1

So, you know, even in our even in the seminar, all of those many of those many of the states in the Pacific Northwest were represented. You had urban, suburban, rural communities, you had representative representatives from each of those types of institutions that you just named. So it really is a unique calling that you serve, a unique community that you serve.

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Speaker 2

Yeah, we kind of joke and I often said to the essentials of development or the one you're at board development, some of the things that we do, I say, look, our hidden motive, our ulterior motive is to get you all connected with each other. Right. Because it's the fabric of relationships that we made for a strong community is in strong organizations.

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Speaker 2

And so, you know, now, now that secret, that hidden motive is out there, we know.

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Speaker 1

It's you can really feel it when you're there. So I want to I want to build on that a little bit, Steve, and ask you about just kind of the general your general sense of trust in society these days. And I'm going to read you just a the report that just came out, I think not too long ago, the Edelman or the Edelman trust barometer, I'm not sure how they actually pronounce it.

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Speaker 1

The Edelman Trust barometer. They've been measuring trust in institutions for 23 years. And in their most recent report, this is the 2023 report. They write this a lack of faith in societal institutions triggered by economic anxiety, disinformation, mass class divide and a failure of leadership has brought us to where we are today deeply and dangerously polarized. And interestingly, the only institution are seen as both competent and ethical is business.

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Speaker 1

And business has historically been kind of a low scorer on this barometer. So I you know, I want to ask you the question, how do you think our American institutions are doing?

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Speaker 2

Yeah, I think they're struggling. I think that, you know, they're struggling for two or three reasons. One is just the challenges that are coming at people are so multiple. And I think people spend a lot of time reacting instead of planning and acting. And, you know, that's its challenge if you're always on your heels. I think the second things is, is that relationships are frayed.

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Speaker 2

And so in a lot of places, you know, we very intentionally try to weave and connect relationships. And I can mention a thing that we do called Candid conversations that has been really amazing to be a part of, but it's it's just that in business, in government, in education, in health care, there have been enough things that get broadly broadcast that give people worry.

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Speaker 2

Is that true of my government? Is that true of my education? Is that true in my health care? Is that true of my nonprofit? Is that true of you know, you get by. And so I think that's the thing that kind of puts people back on their heels and makes it a challenge. Is the fraying of relationships and then the frequent failure within institutions.

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Speaker 1

Yeah. So there is this kind of thread of suspicion that that tends to to run through our communities. And, you know, there's been a lot written about this, but it sure seems like it has been amplified in more recent years. Well, I'm curious, you know, to hear a bit more about how the foundation or how the trust restores the strength of institutions.

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Speaker 1

We've talked a little bit about gathering capacity, building leadership development, certainly providing capital for nonprofits to be able to accomplish their goals and objectives is a big part of that. But but I wonder if you could just speak to some of the ways that you know, you've cultivated and continue to cultivate trust in institutions.

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Speaker 2

Yeah, I think that, you know, in both the processes that we used, we would always do site visits, for example, where you go to people's space and you bring people together at the board member, you know, that kind of thing. But you also asked the kinds of questions that give opportunity for organizations and you say, look, we're going to we're going to ask you these kind of questions.

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Speaker 2

Who else in your community is is doing what you're doing or that you need to be sharing, partner with? And so asking the kind of questions that give people the opportunity to stop and think and to say, how are we in the community? How are we recognized? And do we have a broad base of support if people aren't supporting what we're doing, why aren't they supporting it, you know, that kind of thing.

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Speaker 2

And then I think the other is just recognizing when people that, you know, we're not sort of a one and done granting organization, we really view that we have a relationship with organizations and so they can come to the trust more than once. They can keep coming back for other grants and we might invite them to be a part of programs or convenings that help them build a stronger organization or build their stronger leadership for their organization.

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Speaker 2

And so those are just, you know, recognizing that, you know, there's a multiple ways that you begin to build that relationship out.

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Speaker 1

Yeah. Steve, What were some of the ways you would gauge the success of the Trust, particularly with respect to trust and building healthier communities and and ecosystems? Were there metrics that you leaned on? Did was it more sort of qualitative anecdotal evidence? How would you know if if you were making a difference long term in a particular community?

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Speaker 2

Yeah, great question. And we we worked on several different levels. One is every three years we did an external assessment of our work where we, you know, a third party would ask questions to people that had participated in grants and programs. And then we would gather that feedback, develop themes and actually help us determine goals for going forward.

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Speaker 2

The second thing is, after every grant meeting, we would send out a anonymous survey, a survey that they could anonymously reply to whether they got a grant or whether they were declined for a grant. And it gave them opportunity to say, this is what we think went well, this is what we think didn't go well. This would be comments we would have about the trust that kind of thing.

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Speaker 2

And then the third thing is, is that we would we would hold a lot of listening sessions in the region. And so we would have that kind of constant interaction and engagement and involvement with people. And I think that after a while you begin to develop like enough trust and relationships that people would tell you the truth. You know, there is a certain kind of what you might call power imbalance because you're providing resources, and so you acknowledge that, but you also acknowledge that, you know, eventually that people can be honest with you and it doesn't impact the way you think about a grant or participation in a program.

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Speaker 2

And so I think in every sector, there are certainly people that we really knew we could get an honest answer on good, honest feedback from and have honest conversations about.

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Speaker 1

Right, Right. And I know the program officers are dedicated to particular regions as well, right.

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Speaker 2

There for the. I mean, they're they're really part of the secret sauce. Murdoch are the team by far it's the team that really makes things work.

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Speaker 1

Yeah. And but a consistency across regions so somebody might a program officer might serve Alaska, for example, and he or she will make regular trips there and really be a part of the communities there. Get to know the the organizations up there. Okay. Well, there's so many components to the work that the trust carries out. I do want to turn to Christian education and ask you, how is the trust?

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Speaker 1

How did the trust I know you've you've been away here for a few months. Yeah, but how is the trust supporting Christian education? What are the different dimensions of it? Is it is it Christian higher education? Is it does it dip into primary and secondary education? If you would just paint a picture of the portfolio?

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Speaker 2

Yeah, great question. And education is a critical area in probably over 50% of our work is in the area of education.

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Speaker 1

Okay.

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Speaker 2

So significant area. And higher education. Then we work with our our one organization Research one universities, and we work with private universities. And particularly we work with Christian higher education and Christian K-12, right. And Christian higher education. We recognize that they have less access to governmental support that public institutions will have and foundations support that a secular private college would have access to.

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Speaker 2

So, you know, so we really care about that sector and the importance within the overall ecosystem of higher education, as well as the mission of what they're trying to accomplish. So that's I mean, that's that's how we get there. K-12 is very important. I can say more about that, but so much of it is about capacity building for us and, you know, building that capacity in terms of facilities, in terms of technology, in terms of people, in terms of programs.

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Speaker 1

Yeah. So that's a unique maybe a distinctive is that you're willing to put money into buildings, right? Actual facilities, some some foundations trusts don't like to do that. They they focus more on programs. But you take a pretty holistic view of that and and capacity building would be the people programs but also the facilities that they leverage these organizations leverage to really serve their communities.

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Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah. It's it is one of the unique and one of the real. It's how I originally got connected to the trust that was through making an ask for a grant. So I do appreciate that.

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Speaker 1

We might circle back on that. So I'd love to hear that story. How would you describe the condition of let's just sort of start at higher education? You know, just kind of this would include are one or twos and and Christian colleges and universities and then I want to zero in on how would you describe it describe the current condition of of Christian colleges and universities.

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Speaker 2

Yeah, great. It's a great question and and a very important one. And I would say I'll come at it from two or three angles. One is I'll start with boards. I don't think that boards are rising to the level, by and large, that they need to rise to to help institutions be great. Hmm. And, you know, particularly in private and in Christian education, I think that's true.

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Speaker 2

There's certainly ones that are doing it, but boards are critical. The second thing is we probably place too much importance in the West on a single leader, and it's really about teams. It is about the leader. I mean, there there is an element where the the you know, CEO, president, executive director makes a big difference, but it's ultimately about a team of people and it's about the ability of the leader to bring people together.

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Speaker 2

Leaders get isolé rated. And that's one of the tragedies that I see and particularly in Christian higher education. I'm I'm working with an organization right now where the leader has really gotten isolated. And it's it's tragic. It's a sad thing, but that's one of the real key areas. And then the third is, is that often times groups are working so hard just to fulfill their mission today that they don't have the space and time to think creatively about the future and about how to build out and live out the mission in terms of all the different aspects of what they do.

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Speaker 1

Yeah, so I can I can already feel my breathing easing a bit. Steve, you're you're, you're a relaxing spirit in this very conflicted, contentious and under pressure world of Christian higher education. And I want to go back and kind of probe these three areas that you've talked about. You know, we've as part of this series, we've talked to a lot of leaders in Christian higher education, and I'm not sure they've anyone singled out these three dimensions.

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Speaker 1

Could you elaborate a bit more on where boards are failing? What is the biggest thing they're missing these days and how are you encouraging them to Yeah, to maybe open their eyes a bit more.

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Speaker 2

Very, very important. And in two things I would say, yeah, there's a lot more that can be said, but let me just say these two. One is that governance and accreditation are an important part of higher education, but there is almost been an over emphasis upon the board's role in policy and governance and and neglecting the board's role in stewardship of the mission.

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Speaker 2

Stewardship is a great biblical word and is a great concept. It is so much more rich than just policy and governance. And so boards have got to get a corrective and think about stewarding the mission and stewarding the people that deliver the mission through the programs. So that's that's one that I think is really important for boards. The second thing is many boards, people come and they come and they feel so honored to be on the board and they feel so honored and they they think, What can I bring to a college or university?

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Speaker 2

Good grief or a seminary. And they check their brain at the door. And here are these outstanding leaders. And they come in there and they hear reports in and they rubberstamp things and then they move on and they and they instead of bringing their best thinking and their expertise and their passions into the work, that's being done and then doing the hard work of coming together as a group to really do the highest and best stewardship of the mission.

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Speaker 1

So, Steve, these are really important dimensions of of where boards are maybe not functioning to their full capacity. I think you've had a couple of different things with the strengths that Murdock offers with capacity building, bringing people together, re-energizing communities, bringing life to communities. How, you know, how are you sort of helping some of these boards turn the corner on the way they're organized, the way they're leading the whether leading themselves?

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Speaker 2

Yeah. We did a special initiative called Leading the Change where we brought people. We brought some of the outstanding thinkers on boards, business models, finances, enrollment and enrollment trends and mission. And we helped organizations help the universities think about that and say, what is it going to take for us to deliver in the future? And then we said to them, We're not going to continue to just make grants as usual.

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Speaker 2

If your board is not willing to do the hard thinking that we're talking about, and we will pay for these consultants to help your campus. But if you'll do the hard work, we will also make more significant grants to you to do things differently going forward. And so that has had a big impact and some or some institution have risen to the occasion.

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Speaker 2

And I can give you a list the names of the ones who have said, Yeah, that helps us. And, you know, having a third party like Murdock helps them to be able to do it. But having the resources to do it also helps. And so I think that's one of the ways. And then just being willing to kind of be thought partners and convene leaders, but we do what are called peer leadership cohorts who come together like presidents of colleges and universities.

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Speaker 2

Eight or ten of them will come together and they'll come together on a regular basis for spiritual leadership and kind of thought leadership formation. And what we have found is if they get going as a cohort, if we're number one, it keeps them from getting isolated. And number two, it helps them to think in ways that they may not be able to necessarily think out loud on their campus.

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Speaker 2

You know, and so I think that's been one of the real other strengths, kind of a hidden gem of what we did is peer mentoring and cohorts of leaders.

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Speaker 1

Yeah, I think I've heard this, and I think even in this series, leaders have talked about how how dangerous, you know, in a position of leadership. It's very risky to think out loud. You almost can't do it because people will read values or intentions into what it is that you're processing and you may not have, you know, come to a conclusion yet.

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Speaker 1

So that's really interesting. I'd like I'd like to explore this idea of isolation because you you know, when when you shared this, I could I sense there, you know, these these relationships are raw. You're seeing people as some leaders really thriving, doing well, and some are are in a lot of pain and their institutions are suffering because they're isolated and they've they've kind of put, you know, somehow worked themselves into a corner.

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Speaker 1

I wonder if you could talk about some of the precipitating events that lead to isolation. How does it how does it play out in our current context?

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Speaker 2

Yeah, I think, John, if if people didn't remember another word I said from this time, it would I would say to them, be in being a small group, it was the greatest advice I got early on. Coming out of graduate school is form a small group anywhere you are and make sure it's a small group that's really honest and committed to growing and that holds each other accountable.

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Speaker 2

And I've had that everywhere, all through my life. It's been an incredibly important thing. The second part of that is what I would call a constellation of leaders around you, you know, in a constellation. Sometimes stars are closer to the planet than other times, and you may have mentors that actually live in this time that we live or you may have some like, you know, C.S. Lewis or Tolkien or Chesterton or mentors of mine that lived in another time.

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Speaker 2

And so you've got this constellation, I think. And so being very intentional about building the constellation and learning and growing and then having people around you who know you and love you in spite of all your flaws and who also can encourage you and pray for you as you go through whatever you go through. So I just think that's such a critical kind of an important thing for leaders.

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Speaker 1

How have you done that? I'd love to hear how you've done that in your current leadership roles, and particularly at a place you know, over these last 15, 20 years. You know, as you've led a major philanthropic organization like the Murdoch Trust, how did you find friends, colleagues, partners to to walk with you? Was it special? Was it national?

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Speaker 2

Yeah, it's both. It's all the above. And, you know, if you'll remind me, I'll tell you about a lunch group that I have. That's a very unique group. But when I got here, I had a friend of a friend, a guy that's a lawyer. And I had lunch with this guy in my first week here. And I said to him at the lunch, Hey, are you in a small group?

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Speaker 2

And he said, No. I said, Would you be interested in helping me form a small group? And he goes, Yeah, I've kind of always wanted to do that. And so we invited a guy that was an investment banker and a guy that was a doctor. And we formed a small group and then we added a guy who is an entrepreneur.

00;34;37;12 - 00;35;01;10

Speaker 2

We added a guy that was a Jesuit priest, and we added another guy that was an engineer. So it's a very it sounds like a a joke. You know, they an engineer, a priest, and they walk into a bar, a cafe. So seven guys, we've been together now 17 years and it's been a remarkable We meet every Wednesday for two and a half hours.

00;35;01;13 - 00;35;31;02

Speaker 2

It's very you know, it's just a lifeblood. It's great. So one of the thing is that I have, you know, just built that constellation in my own life of leaders that some are faith based and some are not. You know, some. And and so, you know, this group, this lunch group that I formed a number of years ago has, you know, the former head of Urban League.

00;35;31;02 - 00;36;08;25

Speaker 2

It has a Indian businessman, one of the leading gay leaders in our community. They have a large Muslim institution, the former head of Spain Hispanic group. So it's a very diverse group. And I it's amazing to me they all love getting together because they don't have anything like that in their lives. And and I would never put the term spiritual on it, but they do all the time.

00;36;08;25 - 00;36;23;06

Speaker 2

And it's just a very interesting lunch group because, you know, it's a very, very diverse in terms of ideological believes that in terms of a variety of things. But they're great friends. And I learn a lot from them.

00;36;23;08 - 00;36;47;27

Speaker 1

Yeah, it sounds like it. And so there's value in gathering college presidents, for example, bringing them together. Yeah, they have common concerns and and issues they have to face day in and day out. But one of the things you've modeled and I think you're speaking for is pulling together a small group that's that's really diverse, that has where there aren't a lot of competing interests.

00;36;47;27 - 00;37;07;14

Speaker 1

There's just a lot of diversity in the kinds of tasks and work that's carried out. But there's something that's really unique that that brings everybody together and just a really unique degree of learning and sharing. So I think that's a really interesting insight. So Steve, we've been talking a lot about Christian education, and I think, you know, implicitly some of the challenges are coming out.

00;37;07;14 - 00;37;19;29

Speaker 1

But I want to ask you directly, what is the greatest challenge that Christian education is facing or going to face and in the months and years ahead?

00;37;20;02 - 00;38;06;09

Speaker 2

Thanks for asking that. It's a great question. And, you know, I've done a lot of thinking and research and work on this issue and what many Christian institutions have kind of lost and lost their way on is that what happens in the classroom and what happens outside the classroom have to be connected and the mission comes alive, the chemistry comes alive in a sense of community and and people lose that.

00;38;06;10 - 00;38;29;22

Speaker 2

Faculty tend to think it's all about them and it's all about what happens in the classroom. That's their only job. And yet that's not it's got to be outside of the classroom. And, you know, people work in coaching or work in residence halls. They've got to remember that what's going on in the classroom is critical and they've got to be connected.

00;38;29;22 - 00;38;58;29

Speaker 2

There's curricular, co-curricular, extracurricular, and then there's the community. And they that's the in a sense, that's the value proposition of Christian higher education. It's not that you've got a faculty member that's just as good as a faculty member at Public University Y except that they're a Christian. I mean, that's not enough of a value up option. You know.

00;38;59;01 - 00;39;29;05

Speaker 2

And so I think that's the thing that schools have got to come to, and then they've got to be more outward focused and really providing opportunity to be active in the communities, reward people for being in the community, reward faculty for roles at being great thinkers, but also being great mentors and being great catalysts within a particular discipline.

00;39;29;07 - 00;39;37;01

Speaker 2

So that's where boards and leaders have got to do a better job at thinking, and that's a big challenge.

00;39;37;04 - 00;40;10;06

Speaker 1

So how why are these institutions losing their way on this? I mean, I imagine if you pull recent graduates, even graduates far back, right. They're going to tell you they're going to they're going to describe a range of experiences. They might talk about the classroom experience. They had a professor that just really challenged them. They're going to talk about, you know, their experiences going to games or being in the community or being a part of a club or the beauty of the campus or the, you know, spending time late night in the dorms, talking with friends.

00;40;10;06 - 00;40;16;20

Speaker 1

I mean, why did why do these institutions lose their way on this?

00;40;16;23 - 00;40;48;15

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think it's a combination of things. One is that faculty, a lot of times are trained in institutions where they get their PhDs in there. I mean, Christian faculty are some of the best trained in the world, but they're trained at institutions that are, you know, secular. And so they don't understand necessary fully what a Christian worldview is or what a delivering a Christian education means in the fullness of what just described.

00;40;48;17 - 00;41;22;05

Speaker 2

The second thing is that boards invariably say, We want this thing to really run like a business. Well, you wanted to run like a business. You want it to be run well, but it's not a business. Ultimately, it's a mission driven organization. You're delivered on a mission. And so it's got to be run well. But the third thing is that that a lot of times we've tended to select leaders at these institutions who are people that have simply not not taken risks.

00;41;22;08 - 00;41;47;26

Speaker 2

And because they've not taken risks, then they haven't gotten anybody who doesn't like them. And so they just are sort of flying under the radar. Then all of a sudden they appear in leadership, you know. And so I think that really identifying and in rewarding people that are doing great job leading and being creative and they make some mistakes, you're going to make mistakes that just part of it.

00;41;47;28 - 00;42;06;27

Speaker 2

But of all the organizations, it should be redemptive and be, in a sense, leading the way and create creativity should be Christian education. Now, that's where we need to see that it's in. There are places that are bright lights that are doing great things.

00;42;06;29 - 00;42;17;21

Speaker 1

But I'd love to hear a couple of examples where you've seen some really creative, innovative leadership that that, you know, institutions that are really paving new.

00;42;17;23 - 00;43;10;25

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think that there's some institutions that are trying to really get at the issue of developing interdisciplinary programs that allow for people to work in them in a more cross discipline way. And so the developing of institutes and centers that allow for that inner disciplinary kind of thing, I've, you know, think, for example, of some of the work that is being done at Whitworth University in church engagement, very creative ways of developing and expressing that some of the work of the Honors College or Institute of Faith and Learning at Baylor University has been terrific stuff.

00;43;10;27 - 00;43;46;28

Speaker 2

Michael Lindsay And some of the very creative Michael's a very creative leader and thinks about leadership all the time. Beck Taylor at Stanford University doing an outstanding job and, you know, I could go down the list. There's a number of people like that that are doing very creative, really understanding where they are in the community, really seeking to be, you know, creative in the way that they deliver programs and engage students and and others in the work that they're doing.

00;43;47;01 - 00;43;49;20

Speaker 1

Yeah, those are those are really good examples.

00;43;49;23 - 00;44;08;03

Speaker 2

Yeah. Not to mention a bunch of others, because I could go down the list to Rebecca Nasreen and Greg Jones at Belmont and then the work they're doing there. And there's, you know, so many other folks that are doing some very creative work.

00;44;08;06 - 00;44;35;06

Speaker 1

So is there a shortage, Steve, of good leaders, innovative, creative leaders in higher education, or are boards not just looking in the right places? Is the pipeline strong within Christian higher education or higher education more broadly, or do boards need to be a bit more innovative and begin to extend searches in places that they may not have traditionally looked for?

00;44;35;06 - 00;44;37;05

Speaker 1

Senior leadership?

00;44;37;07 - 00;45;07;26

Speaker 2

Yeah, I would say all about I think there's always a little bit of a shortage of leaders. I think there's always that boards that maybe are looking or need to look at more creative ways. But I would want to go upstream and say churches need to be thinking about the ways in which they're forming and developing leaders. We need to be nurturing and encouraging organizations that bring people together and provide leadership opportunities.

00;45;07;29 - 00;45;51;02

Speaker 2

Right? So like Veritas Forum is a great example of a group that's very intentionally thinking in their scholars development that's going to bear fruit in 20 years if they get the kind of support they deserve that will it'll serve everyone better. So that's going upstream. And I think we've got to think about those kind of programs. I think about the way we invest deeply in seminaries, and seminaries need to do a better job at thinking robustly about how do we serve Christian higher education in terms of the spiritual formation component and development of Christian worldview and that kind of thing.

00;45;51;02 - 00;45;58;26

Speaker 2

So I think there's a lot of ways we can think upstream, midstream and downstream and and do a better job.

00;45;58;28 - 00;46;33;09

Speaker 1

Yeah, that's really helpful. I want to just get a quick hot take on some of the contraction that's taking place. You started to talk about seminaries and I think of Gordon Conwell selling its South Hamilton campus. I think of Trinity International University and recent decisions to to go to online synchronous and async synchronous learning. I think of the King's College under a lot of pressure right now.

00;46;33;11 - 00;46;50;09

Speaker 1

I wonder if you could just speak to the contraction. I mean, from your perspective, running a large trust, having all these relationships across higher education, how deep is the contraction going to go?

00;46;50;11 - 00;47;24;24

Speaker 2

Well, I think in terms of Christian colleges and universities, we'll probably see, you know, 25% of schools possibly close. You know, and it's, you know, partly because of the kind of financial support, but it's also because they haven't done some of the hard work on business model and value proposition that I think it needs to be done. And frankly, Christian have got to step up and do a better job at supporting organizations and institutions.

00;47;24;24 - 00;48;02;18

Speaker 2

So there's a lot of opportunity there for foundations and others. And we need to quit worrying so much about metrics. Not everything that matters can be measured. Yeah, and not everything that can be measured matters. So we've got to think more intentionally about that. And so instead, we oftentimes get so preoccupied with numeric kind of quantification. You know, it is just it drives me crazy in some of the ways that I've seen givers and foundations were.

00;48;02;20 - 00;48;23;00

Speaker 1

Yeah. Are some of these challenge challenges tied geographically? I know all of your years of work in the Pacific Northwest, I think of New England and then you, you know, you can look at other parts of the country where you still have, you know, high percentages of churchgoers and people that are willing to sort of pull out their pocketbooks and write checks.

00;48;23;00 - 00;48;30;16

Speaker 1

I mean, is it geographically based or is it is it much more complex than that? What what's your assessment of a region apart.

00;48;30;16 - 00;48;57;23

Speaker 2

More complex than that, John, I think. I think urban areas are more like suburban or more like rural or more like ups. I think that either we believe in diversity or we don't. We need a wide diversity of Christian higher education and we also need to develop more partnerships, more collaborations. Not everybody has to have a Russian department.

00;48;57;26 - 00;49;24;03

Speaker 2

You know, not everybody has to have, you know, this or that. And I think that's been one of the downfalls, is that schools have to develop some areas of expertise, really be known for that and develop partnerships that help them offer other kinds of expertise. And, you know, build and and strengthen one another instead of simply competing.

00;49;24;05 - 00;49;42;17

Speaker 1

Yeah. And I know sometimes the rankings will will cause some of this duplicate duplication. You know, people chase after the same same things that are valued in the rankings. You know, I'm thinking of U.S. News and other kinds of thing. I think that particularly with professionalism.

00;49;42;21 - 00;50;08;25

Speaker 2

Eventually go away because, I mean, they'll they'll probably stay with us. But I think they'll be less and less influential because they're based there based on the wrong things the rankings are. Yeah. Who cares how many volumes you have in your library, what impact, you know, there, if you're connected into a gigantic information partnership, you've got access to what you need to have access to.

00;50;08;26 - 00;50;31;27

Speaker 2

And learning resources certainly have to be a core part of because people need to learn how to do good research. And it's not just a matter of information, it's which information matters. And so things like that. And so I think that's the kind of thing that that we've got to sort through. But people have got got to be bold on that as well.

00;50;32;00 - 00;50;56;17

Speaker 1

Yeah. Steve, I want to explore a little bit of your background here. And this is going to drive to this. You know, your deep value for spiritual formation. You're someone who has benefited from a wide variety of educational contexts. So you have your Ph.D. from the University of Michigan. You've you've been to Asbury Theological Seminary. You did your Bachelor of Science at McMurry University.

00;50;56;20 - 00;51;11;20

Speaker 1

You've done sort of post-graduate work at Oxford, Harvard, coursework at the Center for Creative Leadership. I mean, these are a lot of kind of non-religious. You got a mix of religious and non-religious institute tions that have.

00;51;11;23 - 00;51;12;16

Speaker 2

Helped you to.

00;51;12;18 - 00;51;38;25

Speaker 1

Help shape you. I mean, you're kind of, you know, sort of split right down the middle with these institutions, really fine institutions and, you know, at the top of the heap, so to speak, Christian formation. You know, early on you were really making a strong case for the unique role of the Christian Academy. There's something unique about it that can't be replicated in these other places.

00;51;38;28 - 00;52;02;04

Speaker 1

I want you to speak to both sides of this because I know you. I know you love Big Blue, and I know it was a formative place for you. And I know you love Christian higher education. Make a case for formation and, even spiritual formation at at each of these types of institutions.

00;52;02;07 - 00;52;36;19

Speaker 2

Yeah. You know, the the unique opportunity that Christian higher education has is the sense of community and the sense of purposefully interconnectedness. So there's a real intentionality to what happens in the entire educational experience, whether it be in a residence hall or whether it be in the dining hall or whether it be on the athletic field or whether it be in the career center or the counseling center or the classroom.

00;52;36;21 - 00;53;15;00

Speaker 2

So it's a unique proposition and opportunity. I think there's also a great opportunity and there's a great thing happening at public universities. Christian studies centers are popping up at some places, and they're just terrific contributions because they helped some of that happen, you know, And, you know, as students are intentional at taking advantage of those, it can really help grow the robustness of what's available at a public university.

00;53;15;02 - 00;54;12;06

Speaker 2

The third thing I would say is that these groups like centers and institutes and then groups like Veritas and others, they begin to almost form like ligaments that hold together and tie together various streams. And I think that's one of the beautiful things that's happening in terms of the work. And then, of course, the the Internet is has provided an incredible way to connect that for people to be involved, like in research together in different places or you take something like the Bible project here in Portland that does phenomenal storytelling, but it's very theologically grounded and biblically shaped, and they're always drawing from theological education.

00;54;12;08 - 00;54;51;18

Speaker 2

And the best thinkers in a variety of ways, that's the way that those guys work. But there's clearly a need for very intentional spiritual formation. People like John Mark, comma, John Ortberg, David Thomas, Seed, Bad Bill, Core Bill, Bill Haley at Coracle I can just name there's about 12 groups there Ruth Haley Martin a number of folks are doing in very important intentional development spiritual formation of leaders.

00;54;51;20 - 00;55;12;23

Speaker 2

We've got to encourage more of that. Ronald Role Heizer, you know, is a brilliant mind, a Catholic leader. Now, there are so many that we've got to nurture those kinds of things long as well. We've got to think ecosystem is the way I tend to think. And we got to have we got to nurture the whole ecosystem.

00;55;12;25 - 00;55;40;25

Speaker 1

Yeah, you're you're, you're a naturalist at heart. I think, you know the environment and sort of, you know, this idea of kind of this broad ecosystem, everything connected is such a such a helpful metaphor. I think that is so helpful when we think about higher education. Steve, you've been deeply immersed. I know this has been an important value for you, but all the places you've worked about formation, making sure that you're your employees, your teams are growing spiritually.

00;55;40;25 - 00;56;04;11

Speaker 1

You've had a chance to see this from the front seat and also from the balcony. You know, how are people best formed? And I want to ask the question where what are the models of spiritual formation that that seem to be really working and that could be implemented in, you know, in Christian education in more effective ways?

00;56;04;14 - 00;56;35;23

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think the the monastic communities provide us with some good examples, particularly if we will look historically and not just, you know, in the current day. There's a lot of great opportunity for that. I think that we can look historically at like the Wesleyan movement, the Clapham movement, the work of Wilberforce was actually a part of a much larger work called the Clapham Group.

00;56;35;23 - 00;57;07;03

Speaker 2

And and so I think that there's historically great opportunities to look at the ways that people are formed and shaped and work together. I mean, most people don't know One of the last letters that John Wesley wrote in his life was to William Wilberforce. They were very good friends, and the Clapham Group was a spinoff of formation groups that the Wesley's Charles and John Wesley encourage, you know, throughout society.

00;57;07;06 - 00;57;39;17

Speaker 2

And so, you know, that was a real important part. But you can see that it came with the way the Jesuits went out into the world, the way that the Franciscans went out at one point in their history. And so I think there's good examples throughout history of that that we can draw from in the Oxford movement. You know, another great example, all the inklings are a micro example, but an important example of that.

00;57;39;20 - 00;58;00;10

Speaker 1

Yeah, Well, in each of your examples, I think is drawing on deep community, you know, a community that propels us, that support, sustains and then propels us to, you know, to live courageously and really be about service that that that that heals and amends that that which is broken. So yeah.

00;58;00;16 - 00;58;33;07

Speaker 2

Mary how one of my pastors Earl Palmer you know always has said that we have to understand that whenever the Apostle Paul came up with a metaphor for it was the body of Christ. And the body is the way that in a sense, incarnation is the key for Christians. It's all about incarnation. It's not just about ideas, it's about incarnation of ideas.

00;58;33;07 - 00;58;39;02

Speaker 2

And so I think that's one of the the beautiful things that we can draw from and learn from.

00;58;39;05 - 00;59;10;20

Speaker 1

Yeah, Thanks, Steve. I've got to ask you about diversity and and belonging and creating a spirit of welcome learning to work not just across differences, but to harness differences for the greater good. And I know, I know you've done that really well. What have you learned along way About. Yeah, about drawing really different people together to accomplish shared goals.

00;59;10;22 - 01;00;02;22

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think that a couple of things I'd say, and I would say that the concept of DEI was probably helpful at one point. I think it's no longer helpful. I think it's been so politically co-opted that it's no longer helpful. And so I would say that what we've sought to do is to think about building our cultural competency and recognizing that in all of our lives there are ways that we need to build competencies and and then to recognize what some of those are sort of to do a self audit and then say how once I've done a self audit or a community audit or an organizational audit, how do we build intentionally those

01;00;02;22 - 01;00;24;08

Speaker 2

competencies in different areas? Where do you go to ask the question that you would be embarrassed to ask if you just were in a crowd and and, you know, getting those questions on the floor and then saying, let's engage people and talk about them, You know? And so I think that's a really important kind of a way to think.

01;00;24;11 - 01;00;59;28

Speaker 2

And I find people are. But I think hospitality is key to this. I think generosity of spirit is key to this. I think the willingness to agree to disagree agreeably is key to this. And finding common space where you may not agree on everything, but you can agree on this. And, you know, if you can get to some of those kind of values and places, you know, then you then you've got the the foundation to build on.

01;00;59;29 - 01;01;02;23

Speaker 2

You know, it really helps.

01;01;02;26 - 01;01;20;21

Speaker 1

And it seems to me that Christian institutions, churches, Christian colleges, universities, K through 12 Christian schools, I mean, these are the kinds of places where we really could have a lot of these conversations and make real progress. And unfortunately, it doesn't always happen.

01;01;20;24 - 01;01;39;16

Speaker 2

Yeah, sometimes when I speak on a Christian campus or at a Christian or a Jay, they'll say, you know, I don't want to be in a bubble. And what I say to people all the time is everybody's in a bubble. So, you know, so we've just got to recognize we're all a bubble. That's just part. But you don't have to live in a bubble.

01;01;39;16 - 01;02;06;23

Speaker 2

You can you may you can move outside that. And it's that, again, that intentional willingness to step outside our comfort zones, to lean in to places and people that are maybe uncomfortable and and to ask kind of questions that really offer the opportunity to build bridges instead of build walls. Yeah, I think that's a really important thing.

01;02;06;23 - 01;02;25;07

Speaker 1

Yeah, That's so, so insightful. Steve. You know, this has been such a rich conversation, and I know you read and think a lot about leadership, and I wonder if you could just make a few recommendations about resources, books and, and thought leaders that have just been really helpful for you.

01;02;25;10 - 01;02;54;23

Speaker 2

Two or three things I would mention. One is I think there's three or four books that I've read recently that are very important books for people. I recommend those one is sacred by Ronald Ro Heiser, where he talks about the ten invitations that Jesus offers to us in the time we live. And they're they're beautiful, ten invitations. And then I think Arthur Brooks strength to strength where he talks.

01;02;55;00 - 01;03;27;10

Speaker 2

I think very important ways about this idea of formation and leadership. And then I think David Brooks works recently have been so great sick of mountain and you know, just some other books like that are so important. And then I think of like Jamie Smith's book on Inhabiting Time is just fantastic book and Jim is such a great thinker in that kind of way.

01;03;27;12 - 01;03;56;14

Speaker 2

Alan Jacob's writings are I think are just fantastic. He's such a great thinker. Love Alan Jacobs So those would be a few people and writers that I think people ought to be paying attention to as they go. You know, is they just for me, they give phrases and framings and they help me verbalize ideas that I can't quite get out of my head.

01;03;56;16 - 01;04;16;12

Speaker 2

And then all of a sudden they give me the words. So I'm able to you know, they are now I've got that idea. I can I can work with it, you know, that kind of thing. And that's a real gift. And it's so many different ways. Christine Paul is another name on hospitality. She does a beautiful job in that book of hospitality.

01;04;16;14 - 01;04;39;00

Speaker 1

Steve, I know our listeners want to know a little bit about what you're currently working on. What are your plans? Can they hire you? Are you available? You know, is your is your sign out? You know, I just love to hear a little bit about, you know, what you're thinking about, what you're working on and how how you're thinking about this next season of life, where you where your where you'd like to invest.

01;04;39;02 - 01;05;07;04

Speaker 2

Yeah. We sat down with our family, actually, and talked about the next season of life is we were kind of thinking about the decision to, you know, wrap up the time as CEO at the Murdoch Trust. And part of the idea was to say, we want to invest in leaders, invest in boards and invest in our people that are trying to be generous foundations and givers.

01;05;07;06 - 01;05;33;26

Speaker 2

And so that's really what I'm doing, is consulting in those different kinds of ways with leaders and with boards and with with groups. And so that's part of it, is to really do that and then to really have a little more bandwidth to be able to invest in and have time with my family and with friends and to, you know, do those kinds of things as well.

01;05;33;26 - 01;05;57;01

Speaker 2

So that's kind of the idea for this season of life. I'm going to be I'm working on a couple of books and I one of my real goals is I've got three children's books that I feel like I need to write. Then I think children's books are great because in book pictures and stories, you can tell very important things.

01;05;57;03 - 01;06;04;12

Speaker 2

And I'm hoping to do those those three children's books. And then I've got two or three books I want to also get written.

01;06;04;15 - 01;06;16;26

Speaker 1

Oh, that's fabulous. Well, we would love to have you on on each of those book tours. So we'll get the invitation out to come be with us in Madison. But we won't invite you in. The middle of the winter, will invite you during the warmer months.

01;06;16;29 - 01;06;20;21

Speaker 2

That's great. Steve has a great place.

01;06;20;23 - 01;06;43;05

Speaker 1

I know. And we'd love to have you here. Steve, I want to close with this. I want you just in, you know, in 30 seconds to just offer the best advice you can to two leaders today. In this current context, what would you tell them to to to really lead?

01;06;43;05 - 01;07;26;20

Speaker 2

Well, sink your roots deep and let God worry about the breath. The bridge over which truth most often comes into our lives is the bridge of relationship. Build strong relationships and you know the God, all you can do is give as much of yourself as you understand to as much of God as you understand. And to keep doing that over and over in small ways and large ways, because you'll discover more about yourself and more about God.

01;07;26;22 - 01;07;40;27

Speaker 2

And it has to be it's a lifelong journey. So give as much of yourself as you understand to as much of God as you understand and keep doing that and be around people that that also want to do that.

01;07;40;29 - 01;08;04;12

Speaker 1

Well, that's wonderful way to work it too. And I can't think of a better way to to wrap up this conversation. Steve, thank you. It's been a joy to spend time with you this afternoon. We're so grateful for your work. Thank you for your leadership and the ways that you're continuing to invest in communities broadly. We were honored to call your friend, so thank you.

01;08;04;18 - 01;08;20;29

Speaker 2

Well, thanks, John, and thanks, Jesse. And thank you all for being willing to take the time and thanks for what you're doing. This is a great idea. I just love the idea of conversation and storytelling and thanks for letting me be a part.

01;08;21;01 - 01;08;45;06

Speaker 1

Thanks for joining us. If you've enjoyed today's podcast, be sure to subscribe and give us a rating on your favorite podcast app. Also sure to check out our upcoming events on Upper House Dot Org and our other podcast UpWords, where we dig deeper into the topics. Our in-house guests are passionate about With Faith in Mind is supported by the Stephen and Laurel Brown Foundation.

01;08;45;08 - 01;09;00;03

Speaker 1

It is produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin, hosted by Dan Hummel and John Terrill, our executive producer and editor is Jesse Koopman. Please follow us on social media with the handle at Upper House, UW.