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Speaker 1

Welcome to the With Faith and Mind podcast and our current series Christian Education at the Crossroads. I'm John Terrell, one of the hosts, and I am excited today to welcome Stan Wallace, president and CEO of Global Scholars. Stan, welcome to With Faith in Mind.

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Speaker 2

Thanks, John. It's an honor to be here. I've been looking forward to this.

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Speaker 1

Well, I'm looking forward to it as well. I'm going to get into our relationship, which goes back, I think, 22 or 23 years now. So we'll have some stories to tell as we go along here. Stan, I hope you won't disclose too much about me as we as we press into this. Let me give our listeners a little bit of background about Stan, because I think it's interesting in, you know, your career path has been really interesting in your service in ministry, but I think it will also this background will shed light on our conversation as well because you've you weren't a lot of different hats over the years.

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Speaker 1

Stan began serving in ministry with Campus Crusade for Christ Now Crew in 1985. In 1999, he founded Cruise Academic Initiative to aid faculty in integrating Biblical truth into their research, publishing and teaching. In 2001, he joined InterVarsity Christian Fellowship's graduate and student Faculty Ministries, serving as national director of faculty ministry. He also established the Emerging Scholars Network to help students prepare to serve Christ as university professor.

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Speaker 1

So, Stan, our relationship probably goes back to 2001.

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Speaker 2

Yep.

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Speaker 1

That's right. It was easy to mark that I was like, Hey, as I was thinking about this preparing, I was like, How long have I known Stan? And, and, and it was it was helpful to see your the date that you joined university because that would be the beginning of our friendship in 2010, Stan joined Global Scholars as executive vice president, and then he was appointed president and CEO in 2014.

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Speaker 1

Stan holds a Bachelor of Science in Secondary Education from Miami University, which is a really great university and M.A. in Philosophy and Ethics from Talbot School of Theology at Baylor University and a Doctor of Ministry in Engaging Mind and Culture. Also from Talbot School of Theology at Biola, where you studied under Dr. J.P. Moreland. Right. So so that'll be interesting to some of our listeners.

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Speaker 1

Stans taught undergraduate and graduate courses in apologetics, ethics and Christian thought, as well as published in professional and ministry journals. He's contributed to several books and edited several others on the topics that I've disclosed in his bio. Stan and his wife Lori, live in Kansas. Odessa, Kansas, had to work on their pronunciation, and they had adult.

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Speaker 2

Children born out of Kansas City.

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Speaker 1

The southwest corner of Kansas City. Okay, which is Kansas City, beautiful city, but a sprawling city. Every time I'm there, I can't read. I know I'm always surprised on how many miles you can log going from one side to the other. Stan, you're passionate about your family, your kids travel, reading. But I didn't realize how crazy about football you are.

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Speaker 1

I got to hear a little story about this. You enjoy playing football, watching football, talking football, reading football. I mean, what is everything related to?

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Speaker 2

I think so. I mean, I used to love to get out and play those. Those days are long gone. So now I enjoy watching a lot more than playing. And and it doesn't hurt to have a son who is more passionate than I am. And so I just try to keep up with Ryan. My my 23 year old.

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Speaker 1

Okay. And so you guys, you do it as a family. And I'm assuming you're a big Kansas City football fan.

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Speaker 2

It's hard to live in Kansas City and not be a Chiefs fan.

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Speaker 1

Okay. All right. Absolutely. We'll let that go.

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Speaker 2

But I did live in Milwaukee, so I'm still a Packers fan, I guess. Okay.

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Speaker 1

There you go. Well, Stan, I'm excited to have you on today. And you bring a perspective that I think is a really helpful perspective, and that's an international perspective. And I wonder if just right out of the gate here today, if you could tell us a little bit about the work of global scholars. I'd like to start there and then we'll dive back and do a little bit a little bit more about kind of you.

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Speaker 1

But tell us about Global Scholars. What is the what is the work that you do with global scholars? What is their mission in the world?

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Speaker 2

Sure, our calling is to equip Christian professors to have a redemptive and influence among their students, colleagues, their universities and their academic disciplines. We do that in a global context. So we're in 92 countries working in pluralistic university contexts. So quote unquote, secular, though I don't actually like that word. I don't think anything in God's creation is secular.

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Speaker 2

But for for lack of a better term, those schools that don't require students to sign a statement of faith. So we even work in, quote unquote, Christian colleges and universities where the student population would be diverse.

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Speaker 1

Yeah. So, Stan, as you know, we've been in this long series exploring Christian education at the crossroads. And we wanted to bring you on because you do bring this global perspective. I mean, you have a deep set of experiences in the United States teaching, working as a college pastor, working with faculty. But then you turn your attention, you know, more globally.

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Speaker 1

We've also in this series, had a conversation with Shirley Rawls.

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Speaker 2

With a friend of mine. Yeah.

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Speaker 1

And I want to I want I'd like for you to and for our listeners, Shirley is the the executive director of the CEO of International Network for Christian Higher Education, the acronym INSCH. And Stan, I wonder if you could just differentiate their work from the work of global scholars.

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Speaker 2

Absolutely. That's an easy one. That's where we have such a deep partnership. They work in those Kano's colleges and universities that are faith based, that require students to sign a statement of faith. Right? So we're on two sides of the same street. And so we find a lot of common cause. For instance, they do conferencing a lot around the world.

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Speaker 2

And though most of it is geared toward those who are in a Christian college or university setting, there tends to be quite a bit of the conversation that's relevant for Christian professors in pluralistic universities. And then we have a separate track that focuses on more distinctive issues that we want to address with them. So lot of opportunities to work together.

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Speaker 2

They do great work and it's just been a great partnership.

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Speaker 1

So, Stan, I want to understand kind of the model of your ministry, the Global Scholars Ministry. I know it's changed over the years and it's evolved. In what ways has it evolved?

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Speaker 2

Sure. We were founded in 1986 by a gentleman who wanted to be sent by a missions organization to teach in a pluralistic university and a religious studies department, and he couldn't find anybody to send him. So he founded our organization and developed a board that sent him. So for our first 25 years or so, we were a sending agency where we would help Christian professors, mostly from the U.S. or North America, who want to teach abroad, find positions, and then help them transition in and flourish.

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Speaker 2

There were we we found there were a lot of changes afoot. Oh, I don't know, at least at least when I came on board in 2010. I think they predate me by some some number of years, but there were less and less positions available for Westerners.

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Speaker 1

And there.

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Speaker 2

Were some geopolitical currents afoot there. But also there was much more access via the Internet to the positions that were available. So there was just less and less need of all of us to do what we were founded to do. Right at the same time, over the years. And this goes back to when our founder first went to Nigeria in 1988, two years after our founding, he met Christian professors who were Nigerians teaching there.

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Speaker 2

And they said to him, Well, how can we be a part of your group? We'd like to be in a community with other Christian scholars and have access to some resources and other things. And the answer was, well, you can't. We send people we don't help those who are already in university posts in their own country. Then the next question was, well, then who helps people like me?

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Speaker 2

And the answer was, Well, you know, outside of a very few countries that actually have ministries focused on faculty and pluralistic universities like the U.S., Australia, Czech Republic, a few places do. But in general, there are no ministries in most countries that help Christian scholars who are already in universities in their own country to flourish and fulfill their calling.

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Speaker 2

And so, long story short, as we had more and more people come to us and say, I'd like to be part of you. Can I? And we kept having say, we don't have kind of any way that you could do that. Our board made a decision and about 20 to 28 that we need to think about how do we serve those indigenous scholars around the world.

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Speaker 2

And that was actually a big part of what the Lord used to bring me to global Scholars. It's been part of my vision for a long time, so we transitioned formally then in 2019 to about nine years, right, to get to a position where we could formally transition in, fully transition. And since then we have been fully engaged in equipping Indigenous scholars around the world, including scholars in North America, in partnership with University faculty ministry and a consortium of Christian studies centers and others.

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Speaker 2

Yeah, So that's that, that that's the focus and that's sort of the history of how we got here.

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Speaker 1

Yeah, that makes sense. So I want to explore you use the word flourishing. I wanted to explore that, you know, you used that, you connected Indigenous professor herders. You want to help them flourish in their in their work, in their scholarship. I wonder if you could paint a picture of that. What does that look like when a when a Christian faculty member is flourishing?

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Speaker 1

What dimensions are are really operative? In what ways are they flourishing? And maybe, you know, maybe there's some nuance to that, to how you would respond to that. But but generally, what are you aiming for when you work with faculty to help them really, really do well in their calling?

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Speaker 2

Absolutely. Well, the first thing to say that's important is the the primary place that we think they are to to be involved, to flourish as believers is in their local church. So we would hope that that's first and foremost. But most local churches, in fact, probably maybe with one or two exceptions, every local church is not able to to to address the unique needs a Christian professor has.

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Speaker 2

And there are unique challenges, opportunities, areas of development that are related to that specific area of service and engagement. And so so our call is to find and help scholars flourish in fulfilling their calling in the academic sphere and in a sense, serve their local church to help equip them in that way that their local church isn't able to.

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Speaker 2

And and so really it's Ephesians 412 played out in the academic context to be equipped for the work of ministry. What is it that God is calling you to at this place at this time, through this position? And we have, interestingly enough, discovered there are at least five key areas that around the world, no matter what country a professor is in, tend to be the same five areas that that they say, hey, I really need to develop in these areas to fully flourish both spiritually and in terms of having a redemptive influence in my university.

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Speaker 2

And I'll listen for you quickly, nurturing Christian maturity and academic contexts. So spiritual formation related to challenges that are unique to the academic.

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Speaker 1

Call.

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Speaker 2

In context. Integrating Bible truth into research, publishing, teaching a third developing ministry and leadership skills. So sort of the skill side of thing, whether you're in a leadership role in the university or having opportunities to to to share your faith with students as those questions come up, developing a skills in that forth relating to different cultural backgrounds. Of course, if you're teaching in a different culture, that's key.

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Speaker 2

But the fact is most of our universities these days draw students from the world. So inevitably you'll be engaging students who are from different cultures as well as colleagues, as well as the cultural difference in ages. It doesn't take too many years at a grad school before you realize that my students aren't like me anymore. They come from a different quote unquote world.

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Speaker 2

So cultural engagement in very various ways is important. And fifth, cultivating professional excellence, which often is more focused on excellence in the classroom. As you know, the research Ph.D. focuses on being an excellent researcher, but not as much on being excellent in teaching. And so that's the fifth area. We do a lot of our work to help help equip Christian scholars and to be effective in their calling.

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Speaker 1

Yeah. So is it fair to say that a lot of your focus is on the individual or or are you also focused on institutions? You talked about the church and helping to equip the church, you know, primarily working with faculty who are serving in, in non-religious, you know, secular institutions. Maybe there's less opportunity to shape institutions, but but that may not be true.

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Speaker 1

How would you react to that statement?

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Speaker 2

No, you're right. And that's one of the other ways we are different, different from Inch is that our focus is on the individual scholar. We don't have any emphasis at the institutional level, whether it be with a university or a denomination of a church, a church, church, denomination. We are engaged, alert level. We're engaged in equipping the individual professor.

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Speaker 1

Right, right. So we think a lot about that here in our work at Upper House. And I want to take advantage of of you as a philosopher, Christian philosopher. And I, you know, because I think it relates and I know your background and philosophy informs the way you think about Christian education. And I want to ask that question How can philosophy help us think about Christian education?

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Speaker 2

As a great question? As a question, I think every Christian scholar needs to ask, but also every pastor and ministry leader who's engaged somehow in the university. For me, I start with Colossians three, 23 and 24. Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart as working for the Lord, not for human masters, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward, it is the Lord Christ you are serving.

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Speaker 2

So the question then is, Well, what does that look like? If the place you work is a university, and I think it means being excellent. And I was working with all your heart and being as good as you can be in the three areas you're you're called to be excellent in as as as a professor teaching research and service.

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Speaker 2

So excellence in teaching and we can talk a lot more about each of these. There's a lot of detail, but I think that has, has a lot aerosolize, a lot to say about that. He talks about in his his book of rhetoric about the three areas that make one good in teaching the logos, the ethos and the pathos.

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Speaker 2

Right. Yeah. So the larger logos, the the, the data and arguments being presented are sound and good and solid. You know, your stuff. The ethos, though, there's, there's, there's a level of credibility and trust students can have in you so that they actually can understand and believe what you say. And then there's the pathos that's engaging the students at the emotional level, helping them make the connections and see why this stuff's important.

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Speaker 2

And and so that, I think, is what an excellent teacher is, someone who is engaging in all three areas logos, ethos and pathos. And I think there are some biblical theological underpinnings to each of those, even though those weren't what Aristotle was drawing on. I think they're very consistent with a number of themes in Scripture I'd love to talk about.

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Speaker 2

But but, but, but let me go on. When you get to research, it's also excellence in research. And and that that has to do with not only doing your research extremely well technically, but also integrating in the right ways. And that again, as a conversation, but in the right ways, biblical truth into that area. You working in. And I think that happens in three different ways.

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Speaker 2

The questions are asked, the way the data is interpreted and the applications that are made of findings. So is excellence there. And thirdly, excellence and service. Yeah, whether one's a department chair or a dean or a provost or president of a university or what have you, it's it's it's leading like Jesus led, serving like Jesus served, treating others with respect, honor, helping them succeed, you know, all of the biblical mandates of how do you serve others?

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Speaker 2

Well, especially when you have some role of authority or leadership in that context.

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Speaker 1

Yeah, that's really helpful. That's really helpful for even those of us who don't work primarily in academia to think about those those three categories. I'd like to go to research, though. You talked about different questions, interpreting data differently, I think. And what was the third and.

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Speaker 2

How it applies.

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Speaker 1

How it applies. Can you give an example of how you might press or challenge a faculty person to to think again about those three categories? I'd like to just press into that because I do think that, you know, our faith does prompt our shared faith can and should prompt different kinds of questions. And I just I'd love a story about how you or Global Scholars works with faculty to to really press into the research part of of their work.

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Speaker 2

Great. Yeah. Let me start actually by a middle level nuance, because I do speak often about the importance of integrating faith in scholarship. And sometimes I get a pushback. And the pushback is, well, all God's creation is already integrated. So there is no need for integration. And that's a misnomer. We we need to dispense with that idea. And what I want to say is yes and no.

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Speaker 2

And it turns out an important distinction by what one means by integration, by integration. Some who have this critique are referring to a and I use a technical, philosophical term, metaphysical reality, a reality in metaphysics, in the way things are in the order of being that that the fact of the matter is, this is all God's creation. There's a deep integrity to all things because Jesus, as we're told in Colossians, holds all things together.

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Speaker 2

So yes. And amen. I agree with that. When I use and others who talk about integration, use the term we're using it in an epistemological sense. Epistemology has to do with with with knowledge. How do we know or or how are we justified to make a claim that we know something as the order of knowing versus the order of being and in that realm in integration is really reintegrating in what has become disintegrated in the Enlightenment, especially where there was a bifurcation of faith in reason of biblical, theological truth from the different academic disciplines.

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Speaker 2

And so there's a deep, deep, deep disintegration that needs to be addressed. And that's what I mean by integration.

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Speaker 1

Yeah, there's good.

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Speaker 2

So but that is sort of a meta level. That's what I mean by integration here in those three phases where, for example, it might come to play in terms of questions asked, there currently is a big debate over the extent of artificial intelligence and in fact, what are the limitations that might be appropriate to impose if there are any such limitations that ought to be imposed?

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Speaker 2

Well, that's a question that has deep implications for human flourishing, for the nature of the person, for what a civil society is. All these questions. So scholars who are working in all those fields who are believers, I think have a mandate, if you will, to do their work hardly as under the law and address the issues they have special expertise to address related to those very important, very timely questions that are being asked.

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Speaker 2

So it has to do with what kind of research projects are you going to take on. So I would encourage professors, let's say in o in in a field of of artificial intelligence, Yeah, you could do some research over here and something that has to do with better processes as to don't an improved coding or something. I don't know enough about the field to say but, but would you consider this type of research project?

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Speaker 2

Because here are the implications of thinking about these issues from a Christian perspective and bringing some scholarship forth that would promote the common good as under the Lord in this area. Mm hmm. Well, let me give you another example from a while ago. I've got a friend for many years ago, sociologist who who began thinking about his discipline from a Christian perspective, he was focused in criminology, a subdiscipline of sociology, and he was working in the field of recidivism.

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Speaker 2

You know, the percentage of of people who had been in prison and were released that went back into the system. And he said and a colleague of mine was in this conversation with them to help them kind of think this through wasn't me, but but that he came to to say, you know what, I think I had to research whether faith in Christ really makes a difference in recidivism rates.

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Speaker 2

MM So he had a very clear hypothesis. He had a way to gather data. He did. He ended up publishing it in a major journal that in fact showed that those inmates who actually did come to us, a genuine faith commitment to Christ, had a much lower percentage chance of entering back to the system after they were released.

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Speaker 2

So you just ask the questions that were born out of his Christian worldview that then led him into certain research projects that then had an implication, or as that then was picked up and used in other contexts for again, the common good, which is part of the call of the scholar.

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Speaker 1

So that is so helpful. And, you know, I think what you're driving at, Stephen, is, you know, this modeling good questions and the courage to ask good in the right questions. And I think if we can challenge and I'm assuming this is the way you think about this, if if we can challenge faculty to to exercise courage to pursue different and maybe better questions, not only does that influence the common good, it serves all of society, but it actually serves students well as well because they see something a little different.

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Speaker 1

So, Dan, you talked about kind of three areas where scholars can integrate their faith in their work. Love to hear a little bit more about the final two.

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Speaker 2

Okay, great. Yeah. So in addition to the questions asked, there's how is the data interpreted Once the the data set is in the logical truth understanding help me understand this data or adjudicate between different interpretations at all. For instance, I, I know of a scholar studying early childhood education and started to notice there was a a link in the data between broken families and their their performance in the k six, you know, the primary, the context education context.

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Speaker 2

And so because of that she she she obviously thought about the biblical context of the importance of the family that's in charge of the family, how families shape people. And and it helped her interpret the data contrary to other things that she could have drawn from the data that might have had to do with well and any range of other socio cultural contexts or factors.

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Speaker 2

And and it led her then to start doing more research on the family and how to strengthen families in underserved communities such that educational performance could be enhanced. So again, it was looking at the data saying, I think I see a correlation between what I know from Scripture and what I'm seeing here in the data and how can that then, circling back, generate additional questions.

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Speaker 2

I can research and press into that a more focused. And third, in terms of the application of the the findings, you know, how how can my research that which I've researched and now have data on and have some conclusions drawn about then be applied to promote that which is true, good and beautiful to to promote human flourishing, to be part of what the university is supposed to be all about in the first place.

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Speaker 2

One example, we have a professor in Eastern Europe who's in a country that has very low sanitation standards, and his research is focused on both affordable and effective ways to deal with waste management and he then, as a result of the work he does, has a lot of opportunity to work in in the community, is known as the Roma community gypsies or how they might be referred to here, though that that's a pejorative term.

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Speaker 2

We use Roma. But but they have very little access and because of his research she's able to do a lot with with a clean water and other sanitation issues. But it's an application based on his biblical worldview of how do I serve the least of these?

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Speaker 1

Right. Right. So that's really helpful. Three great examples are multiple, really helpful examples there. And you're speaking to faculty, you know, asking different questions, maybe better questions, interpreting data with creativity in a way that is fresh and maybe pushes in ways that some faculty or some scholars might not. And then apply it in ways that are different. And I can't imagine a better model of Christian education than to see that those kinds of commitments exercised by faculty.

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Speaker 1

How do you see in what ways to do faculty thinking and acting in these ways? In what ways does it influence or begin to season or enliven the larger educational context with students peers? Can you tell stories about how Christian faculty are committing to scholarship in a different and maybe I would say a bolder kind of way? How does that rub off on those who who interact?

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Speaker 2

Sure. I'll give you an example from our founder, our founder is Danny McCain. He has been in Nigeria now again straight on since 88 at a state university, the first three years, Rivers State and now since 91 at the University of Lagos, which is a federal university, much like our research one universities here in the U.S. So one of the the big issues that plague Nigeria is Muslim-Christian violence.

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Speaker 2

The northern half of the country is Muslim in general, southern half is Christian. And, you know, religious is right in the middle, middle way. But to, you know, mid mid country. So there's a lot of violence in Jos also. And of course, you have Boko Haram up in the north and you hear a lot about them. But some other issues as well.

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Speaker 2

Well, Danny is a theologian by training, but he's had a chance to do some work in peace studies and and again, starting to ask those integrated questions about how Jesus talks about peace, about loving my neighbor, about serving others who aren't like me, all of those things. What what does that say about the kind of things I research and I think about?

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Speaker 2

And so these are some of the areas he's pressed into. And and of course, then the the the application has been to to do a lot of of work in the country from the very north to the very south, speaking and meeting with others who are interested in peace as well. So he's got a platform because he did the research, he did good work and ask the right questions in terms of application to help engage this.

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Speaker 2

So so for instance, he has a department that split Christian Muslim scholars, and so he'll work very closely with his Muslim scholars in these projects, which is not unheard of, but is pretty rare. And in fact, sometimes he'll be in meetings in the city know for his Muslim colleagues, against his Christian colleagues, because they're right on an issue.

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Speaker 2

And and in a sense, it's said so much that he now has opportunities to go meet with imams throughout Nigeria, up in the northern area, who say you're you're a person who I can trust, who's a Christian. Help me think about how we can stop the violence that we're seeing here, Muslim and Muslim, Muslim and Christian in in my area of jurisdiction or in jazz, he's had a chance to develop a whole group of clergy, both Muslim and Christian clergy, who are sort of a a immediate response team when an outbreak occurs.

00;33;00;29 - 00;33;23;27

Speaker 2

And it's usually a group of Christians going to burn down a mosque or are Muslims going to want to burn down a church. And it does go both ways. This group comes together and they'll go together to that church. This to be burned or that mosque has been to be burned. And and B, be there and speak words of peace and truth and defuze the situation.

00;33;24;03 - 00;33;49;11

Speaker 2

And somewhat because of their stature as professors, they have that kind of authority in Nigeria. It's a very hierarchical culture so able to have that kind of influence. But that's just one example of, again, the integrative work that then applies to place places that sometimes are unexpected, you know, midnight out in front of a mosque with an angry mob in front of you, but nonetheless seeking the peace of the city for Jeremiah.

00;33;49;14 - 00;34;18;02

Speaker 1

Well, you're you're describing some pretty amazing faculty that, you know, that have really made significant commitments to to think carefully about their faith and to apply their faith and integrate, reintegrate their faith with their scholarship. I'm curious about where you find these faculty. I mean, how do people find you? How do you find them? Is it fair to call the global scholars Network a movement?

00;34;18;04 - 00;34;47;11

Speaker 1

How should North American Christians think about this? This project? You know, these people, the work that you do, the momentum, you know, is it fair to think about it as, you know, as kind of a growing movement or is it more scattered? I just I'd love to hear a little bit about how you find faculty, how you help equip them, all the kinds of, you know, dimensions that really make up your project here.

00;34;47;14 - 00;35;19;13

Speaker 2

Sure. Well, I think you've used an important word, and that is a movement. I think there is a movement of God in higher education these days among faculty to help them since his call to serve him in their academic work. Uh, it's not our movement. We have the privilege of having a small part in helping to foster foster, but helping to encourage the movement and support the movement.

00;35;19;13 - 00;35;52;09

Speaker 2

But I think it's actually a work of God, this that's occurring in in global higher education. So one of the things that we've really put a lot of our resources into is supporting a global network that has developed among Christian academics. Uh, this is a sign of that movement. Now the network is called the Society of Christian Scholars, and we serve as a principal partner, which means we bring a lot of financial resources and some of the logistical resources to the movement.

00;35;52;09 - 00;36;17;25

Speaker 2

But it's really a movement of, by and for Christian scholars around the world who have joined together and said, we need to be in community with one another, we need to be equipped, we need to share resources, we need to help one another, follow God's call in this place, in this time. And so so we are able to serve a lot of folks through this, the society by those who join the society.

00;36;17;25 - 00;36;47;28

Speaker 2

It is a professional society like any other professional society. Members join their annual dues, that type of thing. And so the the 14 programs of this society are things that we put a lot of our time and energy into supporting, whether those are the webinars that are there hosted, the mentoring program, the resource library seminars, conferences, curricula is being developed and so on and so forth.

00;36;47;28 - 00;37;19;11

Speaker 2

So that's one. Yeah. Secondly is word of mouth people just here that we exist to serve Christian scholars, to be faithful to God's call in their lives and they contact us, reach out to us. We're easy to fight. Done a lot of work on the web to make our selves easy to find. And then in addition to that, we partner with a number of organizations that that that tend to know Christian professors but don't have, uh, they're not equipped to serve them.

00;37;19;14 - 00;37;43;19

Speaker 2

Yeah. One of the groups we partner with at national levels is is APHIS International Fellowship of Evangelical Students, of which University USA is part, but it's a global network of indigenous student ministries. And so I just give you one example. I was I was at a conference in Kuala Lumpur a couple years ago and was approached by a gentleman who wanted to have lunch.

00;37;43;19 - 00;38;12;14

Speaker 2

So we sat down and he introduced himself as the the president of of the IFC movement in Kenya. It's called Focus Fellowship of Christian University Students. He said, And I've been in ministry many, many years, and I know many Christian professors, and I've brought them together a time or two, but I don't have the time, much less the resources to serve them.

00;38;12;15 - 00;38;36;18

Speaker 2

So is there a way we could partner together? So actually I said yes, yes. But the person you really need to talk to is Azam Temple, who is the regional representative in Anglophone Africa, because that's that's how we operate. We, we, we try to avoid a west of the West mentality. Like we've got all the answers here in the U.S. and we'll show up and tell you how to do things.

00;38;36;21 - 00;38;56;16

Speaker 2

So we hire people who are, from different parts of the world, have their PhDs in those parts of the world, have taught in those parts of the world and still live there. So some lives in Nigeria. So some began and continues to go to Kenya and work with the Christian faculty there to help encourage them and equip them in the African context.

00;38;56;19 - 00;39;24;20

Speaker 1

Yeah, that's really helpful. And Stan, I wonder if you could, for our listeners, help put the pieces together in this broad scheme of what we call Christian education. There is the institutional part that by all university is an example of that Christian college. As a Christian seminary. Talbot You were part of that. That's institutional.

00;39;24;20 - 00;39;25;10

Speaker 2

Theology.

00;39;25;10 - 00;39;26;11

Speaker 1

School of theology, right?

00;39;26;11 - 00;39;33;18

Speaker 2

The different seminaries are standalone, schools of theology are graduate schools of undergraduate institutions or universities.

00;39;33;20 - 00;40;01;09

Speaker 1

So you're you're part of that. But there's also this broad network of scholars that are working in these institutions that are, you know, secular, for lack of a better term. And yet make a profound difference in the lives of students and the scholarship that's exercised. And two questions are asking the way it sort of pays dividends for the broader society all those kinds of things, how do these two pieces fit together?

00;40;01;09 - 00;40;43;22

Speaker 1

You know, how what how should we prioritize them or should we should we not prioritize them? You've worked and benefited from both contexts. You spent many years working with faculty through the crew and InterVarsity networks. I think for most people maybe they've had exposure to one or the other, but not necessarily to both. How do they come together when you think about what God is doing in the world and around the world in higher education, how do you see God at work in secular institutions and how how do you see God at work in Christian institutions?

00;40;43;22 - 00;40;49;07

Speaker 1

And how do you bridge those in your own sort of conceptual framework?

00;40;49;09 - 00;41;13;06

Speaker 2

Mm hmm. That's a great question. There's a lot packed into that, so I don't even know where to start. So first and again, making the distinction between a Christian university or a faith based university and a pluralist tech university, although it might be a Christian, quote unquote, university is still pluralistic in terms of the student body. And that's the context I work in.

00;41;13;13 - 00;41;41;09

Speaker 2

I think there's there's a place in God's kingdom for both. Far be it for me to say one or the other is an irrelevant or the most important. I think different students need different education and different professors need different context. I have a friend who went to teach at a Christian college because he he needed to be very vocal in a way that he wasn't going to be able to in a in a secular person, he had to be more nuanced and patient.

00;41;41;09 - 00;42;28;23

Speaker 2

So both for the student and faculty, there are benefits for different types of institutions. There is a desire, I know on both sides for Christian professors to work together. I know many Christian professors that I've ministered to over the years, both in the U.S. and around the world, have a deep desire to engage their Christian colleagues at that the faith based institutions and the because they they have a sense their Christian colleagues over there just do have a little more freedom to talk about issues and maybe haven't had a chance to think a little more about some of those issues of integration.

00;42;28;25 - 00;42;50;22

Speaker 2

Right. On the other hand, the Christian scholars who are at the faith based institutions often will say, Boy, I'd really like to engage my colleagues at at, you know, Michigan State or what have you, because because they're dealing with a whole range of issues. I never get to engage because we are faith based here at Calvin, right? So there's this cross-pollination that has really helpful.

00;42;50;25 - 00;43;14;10

Speaker 2

Right. And by the way, that distinction blurs a little bit when you get into other contexts. I'm thinking, again, sub-Saharan Anglophone Africa, where it's not quite as crisp, but that's another another issue. But even there there's just just this desire to. Let's, let's let's let's find ways, even though we are at different types of institutions and rightly so, to learn from one another and talk with one another and.

00;43;14;11 - 00;43;17;24

Speaker 2

Right. Yeah. Sharpen one another.

00;43;17;26 - 00;43;33;23

Speaker 1

Yeah. And would hold. You talked about sub-Saharan Africa, but some of those same kinds of issues that you see in the U.S., that desire for cross-pollination, that same kind of reality and in major parts of the world. Is that is that a fair statement?

00;43;33;25 - 00;43;56;25

Speaker 2

Oh, that is so true. And I'll give you example both ways. You know, in in I think it's like C.S. Lewis talks about in his writings on chronological snobbery where, you know, we ought to read old books so we don't get fooled into thinking that our thing, our way of thinking about things is the only way to think about things.

00;43;57;02 - 00;44;13;11

Speaker 2

Mm hmm. Well, in the same way we ought to talk to people in other cultures so we don't get fooled and think that our way of thinking about things is the only or right way to think about things. Right? And that's where this cross-pollination of these conversations among scholars in different parts of the world is so helpful. And and I'm seeing it.

00;44;13;11 - 00;44;41;17

Speaker 2

I had a chance to witness an African scholar do a webinar for Christian scholars in China, in Beijing, and and and somebody from the Czech Republic engaged with those in in Argentina, China. And it's just it's wonderful to see the type of issues or differences that come to the fore that are really healthy, that sort of help one another and sometimes a little bit of a, I don't know, awkward way even to say, oh, I, I thought everybody thought about it that way.

00;44;41;18 - 00;45;17;17

Speaker 2

Maybe not. So for instance, in the US there's this there's this paradigm that the Christian scholars often have called methodological naturalism. And it's this idea that in my methodology, as I do my research, I only assume naturalistic causes are explanations. Well, you talk to an African scholar about and she looks at you like you have three eyeballs and she's like, Well, why wouldn't you bring everything you know about something, including theological knowledge, into your thinking?

00;45;17;19 - 00;45;36;23

Speaker 2

You know, it's really the antithesis of integration, saying, I'm not going integrate methodologically. And so that helps a lot of the U.S. scholars realize that, oh, yeah, even though all my colleagues and even all my colleagues at my Christian college here think this way, there are other ways to think about this than maybe a reasonable and I can learn from my African brothers and sisters.

00;45;36;24 - 00;46;13;15

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah. Or conversely, you know, the the scholars in China who have grown up under a communist regime and have had very little chance to think broadly about about some biblical themes like redemptive influence. They love to engage with their Western colleagues, Christian scholars who who are from places where there's actually this kind of thing going on where where you can actually engage in in political discourse and have this type of influence in helpful ways.

00;46;13;15 - 00;46;20;29

Speaker 2

And so, yeah, that's what we're trying to help. Foster Is that type global conversation among Christian scholars.

00;46;21;01 - 00;46;54;13

Speaker 1

So a lot of people in North America would describe Christian education as kind of contracting, particularly higher education. And I don't know if that would be true at primary secondary level, but higher education, kind of a contracting shrinking island in some ways, I think that's actually facilitated my view has facilitated some of that cross-pollination because you find faculty at Christian colleges desiring to relate to Christian faculty and large are one, you know, nonreligious sort of secular institutions and vice versa.

00;46;54;13 - 00;47;39;28

Speaker 1

You see that kind of mutuality of interest. Would it be true to say that Christian education and or Christian scholarship around the globe is contracting? Contracting are the are you know, and that's a big statement and way oversimplified but with the be similar if one were to kind of canvas or to you know look at big swaths of of kind of a global footprint would it be similar to what people feel experientially in the states where there is, you know, a sense that there's more contraction or would it be very different where the outlook would be very different?

00;47;39;28 - 00;47;55;20

Speaker 1

I'm just kind of I'm interested in your sort of quick take on that. Is Is the church expanding globally when it comes to expressions of Christian higher education or is it contracting?

00;47;55;22 - 00;48;01;00

Speaker 2

Well, like I usually see when I'm ask questions about the global context, there is no one answer.

00;48;01;03 - 00;48;01;21

Speaker 1

Right?

00;48;01;23 - 00;48;36;07

Speaker 2

In fact, there's sometimes not even usually not an answer per continent or per region, or even for a country so hard pressed to really give a general answer. I, I do want to say that Christian scholarship. Well, and teaching and service for that matter, are done rightly, whether it's in a faith based or pluralistic setting really doesn't make any difference.

00;48;36;07 - 00;49;03;05

Speaker 2

It ought not to make a difference. In other words, there are constraints that say that they're the core creedal commitments that define orthodoxy as opposed to heterodoxy. And then I, the Apostles Creed, Nicene, Creed and TheNation creed. Uh, but, but, but, you know, Christian scholars, whether they're in a Christian college or a pluralistic college, who who are within that tent, those boundaries have a lot of freedom.

00;49;03;08 - 00;49;30;10

Speaker 2

Mm hmm. But the fact is that there are other constraints that are, I think, are placed on Christian faculty in Christian universities, maybe by more narrow doctrinal commitments or certain commitments to what it is to to to engage culture. And what is and isn't appropriate are questions you don't ask about this issue, that issue. I think there are equally maybe even more constraints placed on Christian professors in pluralistic universities.

00;49;30;12 - 00;49;48;05

Speaker 2

Mm hmm. By the culture, whether it's a communist culture or Muslim culture or a secularist culture, where there's certain questions you can't ask. Now, those questions, I think the Christian Scholars response says, Well, now I need to figure out how I can ask that. But asking in the right way, in the right context, the right tone, and all of Aristotle's, you know, ways of communicating.

00;49;48;07 - 00;50;15;12

Speaker 2

But the point is that that I think in the best scenario, you know, there are boundaries that all face. But but there are barriers imposed by the institution or the culture that the Christian scholar ought to be thinking about. You know, if they're inappropriate boundaries, how to how to respond to in the right way, which is so much easier said than done.

00;50;15;14 - 00;50;44;02

Speaker 1

What about from the perspective of a student or a potential student? You know, again, it's a hard question to ask, but and I know there's not one clear answer, but what are the opportunities and maybe how have our opportunities changing for students to be exposed to Christian ideas no matter where they land? How have you seen that change?

00;50;44;02 - 00;51;21;07

Speaker 1

What new manifestations or pathways for learning and integration are you seeing emerge? I guess I'm drawing a little bit now on your paired church Campus Ministry experiences. You're you know, you've you've seen good models of pluralistic education. You've seen good models of formal Christian education as a potential student. Let's say I'm a 20 year old, 21 year old, and I'm going to ask it both in North America and and globally.

00;51;21;07 - 00;51;40;17

Speaker 1

And I know it depends on the region, but what might I see or today, as a poet, as a student entering college or university life, that would be different from what I would have experienced or seen you know, when you first started out, let's say 30 years ago?

00;51;40;20 - 00;52;23;09

Speaker 2

Yeah. Again, the global context is so relevant, you know, so depends on where you're talking. The answer so different. Mm hmm. I do know a lot about the U.S. context, so I'll refer to that. Yeah. I think there's there's positives and positives and negatives positive in the positive side. There have been a thoughtful Christians who have had a sense that even though a certain discipline is very secular in terms of the the the the narrative have gone into those disciplines have made a real difference.

00;52;23;09 - 00;52;56;07

Speaker 2

And I'll use my discipline as an example philosophy. Back in the early 20th century, it was just a given that if you're studying philosophy, you're an atheist and so on and so forth. And one of the big reasons was the form of the problem of evil. Why would a good God allow evil and suffering? And and there were a group of of individuals in the fifties, early sixties, who decided they wanted to they were believers would do PhDs in philosophy and tackle some of these issues.

00;52;56;09 - 00;53;23;19

Speaker 2

So they did. And one of them got a Ph.D., went to work after he finished his his his degree. On this issue of the Problem of Evil, published a book to respond to the critics, deflated the whole objection. To this day, that objection is not held held anymore. He his name is Al Plantinga. Books, God, freedom and evil.

00;53;23;21 - 00;53;55;07

Speaker 2

He and a number of others. Nick Wolterstorff, Marilyn Adams. Dallas. Willard. George Mavrodi, Michigan. But a lot of these key institutions had Christian professors who really changed the discipline, such that in an atheist journal called Phyllo said Journal in Philosophy that really addresses issues in atheism. A few years ago, an article appeared by Quentin Smith, a professor at Western Michigan University.

00;53;55;09 - 00;54;19;02

Speaker 2

And basically he was bemoaning the fact that we atheists have lost so much territory. So used to be this was, you know, kind of a given our view. But he said today, I think he said a third quarter to a third of all academic philosophers are Christian. And we got to figure out how to get to shore up the walls because we're getting beat at our own game.

00;54;19;04 - 00;54;51;17

Speaker 2

And it's just because these people did excellent research, got published in top journals, published books that became very important books in the field. And now any student who enters into a philosophy, certainly graduate program, but a lot of undergraduate classes, they're going to read one of these individuals and others as well. Eleanor Stump So many others I can mention and are going to have to have to engage, that there are thoughtful Christians who are giving reasons that Christian is actually true in the light of these conversations we're having in our field of philosophy.

00;54;51;20 - 00;55;21;16

Speaker 2

So, for instance, epistemology playing again went to work on that and gave reasons to believe there's actually God to make sense of how we can know anything at all. Well, that actually, I think started a bit of a domino effect into other fields history, sociology, some others where there now are a lot more thoughtful Christian scholars who are publishing and teaching such that students will run into them now a lot more than they would have 30, 40, 50 years ago, which is really positive.

00;55;21;19 - 00;55;41;18

Speaker 2

I think it's important for students to know how to how to how to find them. If I could have a shameless plug here, I do a podcast called the College Faith Podcast, and I try to interview folks who can help students answer some of those questions. But the short answer is there are professional societies of Christians in all these disciplines.

00;55;41;18 - 00;55;57;00

Speaker 2

So if you're majoring in philosophy, you should join the evangelical philosophical society and the society of Christians philosophers, and you'll you'll figure out who's some of the leading thinkers are who are believers in your field. So that's the good news.

00;55;57;02 - 00;55;59;07

Speaker 1

Yeah. Give me the bad news.

00;55;59;09 - 00;56;22;15

Speaker 2

Well, the bad news is I think that the conversation has become at the university as everywhere, so much more radicalized and politicized. And there's just you know, it's a harder environment for there to be actually civil conversation and the type of discourse that leads to truth. So I think the campus environment is is less healthy for students these days.

00;56;22;17 - 00;56;41;15

Speaker 2

And that's not only on pluralistic universities. I think we're seeing that in some of the Christian colleges and universities as well. So that that I think is a very important change from, you know, 30 years ago. But again, there's there's always the good and the bad, right? It's just what our generation had to deal with and what this generation is looking at.

00;56;41;18 - 00;57;33;03

Speaker 1

You know, it's an important point you make, and that is that it's not so much about I mean, institutions are important. I think you would agree with me that institutions are really important. They play a really fundamental role in our society. But you can have impact. We can have impact. Christians can have impact through the through really the solidification and identification and kind of development of really good ideas that take root that that gain momentum, that gain scholarly reputation, and all of a sudden that empowers others to enter fields to ask similar kinds of questions, different kinds of questions, identify themselves as people who espouse to Christian faith and and kind of find one another.

00;57;33;03 - 00;57;48;11

Speaker 1

And you can begin to change a whole academic discipline in some ways or through that kind of work that could take place in a Christian college, or it could take place in a pluralistic institution. So is that.

00;57;48;13 - 00;57;58;04

Speaker 2

That's right. And actually, a number of the people I was referring to in philosophy started in faith based institutions and then ended up then left more pluralistic contexts.

00;57;58;10 - 00;58;21;12

Speaker 1

Yeah. So to say and I want to start to wrap here because we're at the end of our time, but I do want to ask, you know, this a more personal leadership question. You know, you work globally, which exposes you to all kinds of fresh ideas and insights from, you know, different parts of the world. What's one practice or principle that you see taking shape internationally?

00;58;21;13 - 00;58;29;16

Speaker 1

You know, pick your country, pick your part of the world that you'd love to impart to America's colleges and universities?

00;58;29;19 - 00;58;59;25

Speaker 2

Not that this is not happening in the U.S., but I it seems to me it's it's it's more of a at least felt need in other parts of the world. Well, give an example. One of our one of my colleagues is in in China and her teaching at a very prestigious university there and really felt all alone as a Christian scholar.

00;58;59;28 - 00;59;35;05

Speaker 2

But as he began to seek out others who he thought might have a a Christian commitment, found out they did. And has now found that there are and I don't have a hard number, but probably in the vicinity of 100, 250 Christian scholars in Beijing that he's connected with. That are being very intentional about gathering. Now, their situation is a little different in that, you know, they tend not to have residential campuses.

00;59;35;05 - 00;59;55;19

Speaker 2

They're spread out across the city. So they don't they don't identify as much as this campus group. But were Christian scholars in Beijing. And we meet together and just in just that need. And we're seeing that in in South America all through Africa and the Middle East. There's some folks from Oman and do in Dubai and UAE beginning to meet together regularly.

00;59;55;19 - 01;00;23;23

Speaker 2

And they're doing it by Zoom. But just this this realization that, you know, we are called to be in community both for our own health and formation, but also to have the type of redemptive influence God is calling us to have. And so just this intentionality about even though it's hard to get across, you know, from one side of Beijing to the other to meet or whatever it is or in some countries it's not even legal still.

01;00;23;23 - 01;00;43;07

Speaker 2

We need to be together. We need to be in community with one another. We need to gather. And it has to be by Zoom like this group and, you know, UAE, Oman. Okay. But even better, how can we be present with one another? And I know that that happens. And, you know, we've been involved in that, you and I and others in the U.S. for many years.

01;00;43;07 - 01;01;15;15

Speaker 2

But sometimes it it seems that us faculty have a little more of the independent streak, like kind of out there on my own. I can do this but but now now this this in in inborn need for community part of the imago day I think you know created by a triune God is is just core to what it means to flourish and so I'd love to see that be more and more prevalent around the world among Christian academics.

01;01;15;17 - 01;01;35;17

Speaker 1

Yeah, that's a really helpful example. Well, Stan, I love to hear a little bit about what you're working on. I know you've got a podcast. We'd love to hear that again, if you want to sort of direct people there. But what do you what are you thinking about working on in your own sort of writing in research, or what's a project that Global Scholars has taken on that you're really excited about?

01;01;35;20 - 01;02;02;09

Speaker 2

Oh, I appreciate that. Offered the opportunity to mention a few things. Yeah. I do have two podcasts. One is the College Faith podcast and it really comes out of years and years of parents or friends, parents of students going to college or friends. You know, no one. I work in the campus environment asking me questions about how do I help my son or daughter flourish both academically and spiritually during their university years.

01;02;02;11 - 01;02;16;06

Speaker 2

And I was thinking I might have a thought here and there, but boy, you should really talk to so-and-so. Mm hmm. So the podcast is just inviting to all the so-and-so's to bring their expertise and answer the questions that I ask them that I'm getting to ask. It's just a lot of fun.

01;02;16;08 - 01;02;18;07

Speaker 1

That's a great idea for a podcast.

01;02;18;12 - 01;02;48;07

Speaker 2

Yeah, it's been it's been great. This drop once a month, the first of each month. And then I do another one called Thinking Christian Lee with JP morgan, my mentor and friend now of, gosh, over 30 years. And you know, he's recently been named one of the top 50 philosophers alive today, not just Christian, but whole gamut. Very thoughtful, very insightful, very, very committed to integrating faith and scholarship.

01;02;48;09 - 01;03;10;05

Speaker 2

And he's he's written a lot. But the younger generation might not just know who he is and walk in and pick up their book. So he started this podcast, really, truth be told, to introduce him to to the next generation. I mean, I have a few things to say and we have a host that does a wonderful job, but it's just a chance for JP to, to bring some words of wisdom, especially to younger podcast audience.

01;03;10;09 - 01;03;44;10

Speaker 2

So that's thinking Christian Lee And then, you know, there's a book project I've got, I've got underway there. There's a growing group of folks who are very well-meaning. They're, they're believers who really want to help the church and individual believers grow in their faith with Christ, and they tend to be from fields like psychology and psychiatry, and they're part of the movement that's come to be known as neuro theology.

01;03;44;13 - 01;04;22;11

Speaker 2

So it's it's an attempt to integrate theology with what we know from neuroscience. Two leading folks are Kurt Thompson and the book right here. Uh, Jim. Jim Wilder. Right. And and I've done quite bit of work in philosophical anthropology, which is this field. What are we? And unfortunately, though well-meaning and committed as they are, they they they really are going down the wrong road because essentially they're advancing a view that's called Christian physical ism that we're nothing more than a body.

01;04;22;13 - 01;04;51;01

Speaker 2

And any talk of soul or mind gets reduced to natural events. So you lose the soul. You lose. You know, what is it that saved? What is it that Christ took on? How is his death in my place? I mean, all of these theological themes are rooted in What are we? Yeah. And so these are pretty big issue, even though it seems that nobody in the church context I'm in are seeing it as such.

01;04;51;01 - 01;05;08;16

Speaker 2

And I keep hearing them read and sighted and on podcasts. So I'm trying to read a response and get that in the proposal and not to a publisher. So be a matter of prayer. But again, these are great guys. I think they great great hearts. They just don't have training in the field that they're writing in. They do when they're writing in neuroscience.

01;05;08;16 - 01;05;13;07

Speaker 2

But as they apply it to what are we there's there's a disconnect.

01;05;13;10 - 01;05;30;28

Speaker 1

Well, good. Stan, I am so grateful for your commitment to all the work that you're doing around the around the world. Thank you for the great work of global scholars and thanks for being a part of the podcast today. It's been really enlightening. It's just been good to connect with you and to catch up with you and to learn a lot of new things about you.

01;05;30;28 - 01;05;32;13

Speaker 1

So thank you.

01;05;32;15 - 01;05;42;10

Speaker 2

Well, thanks, John. I am so thankful for your work and what the House is doing as part of the consortium Bristol City Centers. It's amazing work. Blessings to you as well.

01;05;42;13 - 01;06;09;22

Speaker 1

Yeah, Thanks, Dan. Thanks for joining us. If you've enjoyed today's podcast, be sure to subscribe and give us a rating on your favorite podcast app. Also, be sure to check out our upcoming events on Upper House Dot Org and our other podcast UpWords, where we dig deeper into the topics our in-house guests are passionate about. With Faith in Mind is supported by the Stephen and Laurel Brown Foundation.

01;06;09;25 - 01;06;24;17

Speaker 1

It is produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin, hosted by Dan Hummel and John Terrill, our executive producer and editor is Jesse Koopman. Please follow us on social media with the handle at Upper House, UW.