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Speaker 1

Welcome to With Faith and Mind. My name is Jesse Koopman, the producer of the podcast. And I'm here with two of my very favorite people, John Terrill and Dan Hummel. Welcome, guys.

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Speaker 2

Hello, welcome.

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Speaker 1

We are doing a special episode this week. We are doing kind of a mid series check in. We're going to talk about some of the things that we've learned along the way and the questions we still have that we're hoping to get addressed as well as just kind of informally process together because we don't get a chance to always sit down together and kind of go over what the other people have had conversations about and really just kind of have an informal chat about where we're going with this whole process and what we've taken away so far.

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Speaker 1

So I'm going to kick it off with you guys with just a real basic question of what have you guys thought of this series so far? Have you guys been really enjoying the process? Have you learned a lot?

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Speaker 3

Yeah, I can start. I think it's been really interesting. It's a certainly different type of podcasting than we're used to doing it. Upper House. I think the one of the more exciting things as we've gotten to extend invitations and actually have interviews, conversations with people is just that we've gotten to talk to some really fun people and, and sort of our our wish list type people too, as we've tried to map out different types of institutions of education, different backgrounds, that people are coming from, different things they can talk about, I think in ways that don't always pan out when you start a project like this.

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Speaker 3

We've really gotten to talk to the people that we started the project wanting to talk to, So that's been a a great sort of fun part of the project is getting to talk to these people and we can get into sort of what we've talked about. But so far I've really enjoyed the process.

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Speaker 2

Yeah, I would agree It's been fun to have these conversations and lightning. It's also been a good learning experience for us. I mean, I'll speak for myself. I'm learning how to do this. I have a, you know, have a podcast voice and then let my personality come through. And so that's been really good and developmental, and I've enjoyed that process as well.

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Speaker 2

So a lot to learn, I think, you know, across the board there's a keen sense of the need for Christian education. I think there's a lot of different views about how to accomplish that. Yeah, it's hitting a lot of factors that make that complicated.

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Speaker 1

So one of the things we talked a lot about in our intro was why Christian education of the Crossroads, Why are we calling it this? What have you kind of come to the conclusion about as far as our name goes, what is the crossroads that we keep running into? What are the some of the themes or characterizations of the struggles in education or the the challenges that are or the conflicts that are that we see arising regularly?

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Speaker 3

Well, I can I can jump in and I think it's a rich metaphor of the crossroads. And I think there's a lot of different ways you can think about it. I think I'm just going to get specific with a couple of the interviews. I think of one of the interviews we've done, Charlie Koppelman, who talked to us about the history of the Christian Studies Center movement, and he's someone who thinks about Christian study centers, which tend to be located in urban university settings.

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Speaker 3

He's also a leader in an effort to sort of lead Christian education in rural settings as well. So there's a big crossroads there for someone like Charlie, who's trying to think about sort of where to dedicate resources, where does the church need education in this moment? And another person I think about is Andrea Turpin, who talked to us about the history of Christian higher education.

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Speaker 3

And you know, one thing, often when you talk to historians, you come away realizing nothing that you think is new is actually new, that there's always been sort of a certain iteration that before. And so the crossroads are interesting because it's not just one crossroad. I don't think I don't think we're at some utterly unprecedented moment in Christian education.

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Speaker 3

But each crossroads is different and has its different challenges. But she was someone who helps me understand in a sort of stronger way that a lot of the issues that we see as sort of perennial issues in education, in Christian education, are ones that have very long histories and that there have been other moments in the past where it's felt sort of as important as now to deal with those things.

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Speaker 1

And as a review on that, he would identify with the historical aspects and the interviews, though not at all. Yeah. So Dan is a history crazy person. We love him for it. One of the themes that I've noticed is over almost everyone we've talked to on some level has talked about the demographic cliff. Mm hmm. What have you guys learned about the demographic Cliff?

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Speaker 1

I know, John, you've had a lot more experience with this conversation than others, but what? Dan Yeah.

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Speaker 2

I had heard a lot about it. I didn't actually know the cause or the root cause of it, and it really is. It traces back to decisions by couples parents, and around 2008 and the Great Recession to, to really limit or refrain from childbearing. And so fewer students, potential students born children born in those years starting in 2008, in 2026, those kids enter college.

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Speaker 2

And so we're facing a real demographic drop off. Those numbers have been trailing off to begin with, but trailing off significantly since 2008. So the freshman class of 2026 is going to be much smaller. And so you have a lot of colleges and universities, not just in America, United States, North America, United States and Canada, but all around the world.

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Speaker 2

Now trying to, you know, attract and draw students in to matriculate through their programs. So there's, you know, fewer students. And that's not necessarily the case, you know, that we're not experiencing some of the same population challenges in different parts of the world. But there are more and more competitors these days with international.

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Speaker 1

Yeah, total.

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Speaker 2

Possibilities. And you have just smaller numbers coming out of the United States.

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Speaker 1

So on on that note, so we've talked about some of the challenges. What's one of the things that hasn't been addressed yet? And in our conversations that you're still really eager to know about? So we still have several conversations to have in this series before we wrap up. What are some of the things you're hoping still come out?

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Speaker 2

Yeah, I would say that, you know, we've we've heard some reflection about a reimagination for Christian education within the church. And so I'm really eager to have a few more conversations with church leaders, denominations, you know, a clear ecclesiastical bodies that have been thinking about Christian formation and education for for a number of years or decades or even longer, what can we learn from them?

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Speaker 2

What what trends are they seeing? Are our adult learners and students and young people starting to find intrigue and interest in Christian education again? Are those courses starting to to ramp up? How? What are the ways that churches are reimagining Christian education? I think there's a lot more to learn to learn there for sure.

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Speaker 3

Yeah. For me, I I'm eager. You one of the things that struck me is and this was sort of obvious from the beginning, but it's it's come through with the interviews. We are interviewing a lot of Protestants, and that's kind of who we are, where we come from. We're interested in sort of Christian education in the broad, you know, American church, a lot of it Protestant.

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Speaker 3

But I'm eager for a couple of conversations that still have to happen where we're going to be hearing from a Catholic or other voices to get a sense of what Christian education means from those traditions. And I think there will be interesting there'll be probably a lot of overlap. I mean, there's there's not it's not entirely different world, but there will also be interesting differences that I think.

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Speaker 3

And Jesse, you're the one who who's been on all of these interviews and neither of us have been on them. But I think there are recurring patterns when you talk to enough people in this space of what people are thinking about, how they're framing the need for education. Mm hmm. And what they think that looks like. And it's always good to sort of get a wider, wider lens when you can.

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Speaker 3

So eager to eager to to hear from some voices outside the Protestant fold.

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Speaker 2

Yeah. And I think to to speak to that wider lens, I think there's a lot happening internationally. Surely. Ross was was an interview person we spoke with. She runs an association that's helping Christian colleges, institutions of higher education around the world find each other, think about curriculum innovation, think about Christian formation. They're gathering leaders from these institutions around the world.

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Speaker 2

There's a ton happening around the world. I mean, the growth is, in some places, explosive, exponential growth. And, you know, we're mostly experiencing a contraction in North America. That's not the case around around the world. And so that's really interesting. So I think, you know, a different lenses, too, is to kind of zoom out and then zoom in in different regions of the world.

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Speaker 1

That's a great point. And I want to follow up on that, too, to talk about some of the things that I've surprised you guys. So having sat in on all of these conversations so far, I've learned a ton. This is not my normal space that I exist in, unlike you guys. So I've learned a ton. But I'm curious even more than what I can bring to that part of the conversation.

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Speaker 1

I'm happy to chime in a little bit. What are the things that you guys as people who follow this fear normally, what are the things that you've learned so far? What things that you've taken away that are actually new to you?

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Speaker 2

Well, one thing that I could speak to and again, this is hopefully a follow up conversation with us, but one of our conversation conversations was with Jean Becker, who comes with just a long kind of pedigree of Christian leadership, organizational leadership, chairman of the Board of Christianity Today, president of Taylor University, American Bible Society. I mean, just a long track record and, you know, he's also on the board of the Consortium of Christian Studies Center.

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Speaker 2

So he sees the potential of entities like Upper House. You know, these these initiatives that are taking place on public non-religious university campuses that are bringing a Christian worldview, Christian theology, you know, deep Christian integration to bear on professional practice and academic disciplines. And he speaks very encouragingly of that movement. He's also a big believer in the Christian college movement.

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Speaker 2

He spent a lot of years there in several institutions leading Christian colleges. But he's also pointed us to some work that's starting to emerge out of churches, mostly around the world, where a lot of churches are taking Christian formation and even Christian college as a sort of personal responsibility. They're thinking about higher education. How could churches work together to create a college environment that, you know, could either be in-person or in many cases more of a hybrid or virtual, an opportunity to learn and to begin to, you know, think about academic pursuits and disciplines through a Christian lens.

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Speaker 2

And so this church college movement is something that's really new to me that I don't know anything about. But but it was raised as one of the real potential building blocks or future building blocks of Christian formation around the world in the years and decades to come. So I would like to explore that. It's a democratization of college in some ways, you know, opening up college life to large numbers of people around the world that might not otherwise economically have an opportunity to do that.

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Speaker 2

Yeah, but through the vehicle of the church, the institution of the church. And so what does that look like? I think there's a lot for us to learn.

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Speaker 1

Diana, But that's one of those things going to look wildly different in different institutions. I mean, the variety of churches we see not even in around the world, but just in our own community here in Madison is is pretty crazy. I mean, it's it's one church that looks very, very different than the other, both theologically, culturally and socially.

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Speaker 1

So, I mean, to see what they would do differently with creating a sort of college program, an institution within their own congregation, it would be very fascinating to to kind of wrap my mind around and see what happens with that.

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Speaker 2

Yeah. And I think it raises, you know, as much as it encourages me, it also raises questions for me because I.

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Speaker 1

Fears for sure. Yeah.

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Speaker 2

Because I am someone who, you know, I think institutions serve us best when they serve out of their strengths and their deep reservoirs of experience and capacity. Right. So is should you know, should the church become a vehicle for higher education?

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Speaker 1

Yeah. And I'm sure some churches could meet that need exceptionally well and others could probably really struggle at it. But if there's a push to lean into that across the board, we could see issues rising in the diversity within that.

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Speaker 2

Yeah, Yeah. So I just think there's a wide range of questions and, you know, who are we? I think we have to be careful about making judgments about movements around the world too. Yeah, because I think, you know, we have our North America, North American lens. But, you know, if you talk to people in Nigeria, they're going to tell you a very different story about how things are evolving and changing there.

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Speaker 1

Mm hmm.

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Speaker 3

Well, a couple of things that have surprised me. One is it didn't surprise me because I work at Opera House, but it surprises me is how much the people I've talked to have emphasized formation as part of education. And those can, at least in the mind like mine, seem somewhat different, that, you know, formation might be much more about character formation, spiritual practices, things like that in education, about information and sort of learning things.

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Speaker 3

But how you sort of guest after guest has has emphasized how they see these things as really working together and that good Christian education is also deeply invested in Christian formation. And I think if Karl Johnson, the director of the Study center movement, a Christian consortium of Christian Studies centers, really made that point in our talk with him.

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Speaker 3

The other thing came out of interviewing Shirley Hoekstra, who is the president of the Council for Christian Colleges and Universities. And she's just she put words to something that I was getting a sense of as we were doing the planning for this, which is she really sees all of the different institutions we've been talking about as part of an ecosystem that really function at their best well together.

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Speaker 3

And so from, you know, you can think of from cradle to grave, there should be Christian education happening for every person. And I'm so glad we didn't name the series Christian Higher Education at the Crossroads, which was one option we were thinking of because that would have really narrowed us into one type of conversation and and having a much fuller sense of the ecosystem of Christian education.

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Speaker 3

Every Christian college student, you know, comes out of a certain educational trajectory and they will go into another one after their time at college. So she's giving me that sort of sense to be looking around for the ecosystem connections on a lot of these institutions we're talking about. They don't all work together all the time, like they don't all see the ecosystem.

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Speaker 3

So it's sometimes up to the observer to pull back and understand how they all work. But at their best, I think they do understand that the church understands its role in relation to colleges, in relation to primary schools and so forth.

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Speaker 1

Yeah, I'd say if there was one surprise that I've certainly gotten across, is that a lot of the conversations we've had with people who are very much leaders in Christian education are also very quick to point out its gaps, not that I wouldn't expect them to be aware of their blind spots or or to have this knowing where there is not a a plug to be filled within their institutions, but how they are really good at acknowledging the limitations of Christian education, specifically in higher education, where there are kind of getting to your point, a lot of formation things.

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Speaker 1

And are they considered an ideal environment for developing the life and mind of a young person, a young adult? But also there are needs that some Christian institutions can't meet, whether it be programmatically. So like there aren't many Christian education facilities for becoming a doctor or a lawyer and they've been very forthright about that. And then they are quick to praise the other options that exist, whether it be Christian study centers, whether they be campus ministries like InterVarsity, like CRU, etc..

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Speaker 1

But they're really keen to say that like there is not a single model that is for everyone. And I've been really pleased and encouraged to see these great people of these great institutions really express humility in that in a now very way that's humbling to myself as well as encouraging to me to see people can get their needs filled for Christian upbringing at different stages in their life through various means.

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Speaker 2

Well, yeah, yeah. Just I think it's a really good point and I want to kind of jump off that point and return to something that Dan spoke about, and that is this idea of kind of a spiritual ecosystem ecosystem. I do think that one of the things that surprised me is that is a humility, but also I think an opportunity is for greater awareness of how this ecosystem works.

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Speaker 2

And so I liken it to like a river. You know, there's things that are happening upriver that will eventually come downriver as somebody, you know, enters college or maybe even as an adult learner is being formed in a church context. And so a lot of recognition that, you know, what we do with kids in early childhood is critical.

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Speaker 2

I mean, we're really working, you know, kind of in the early stages of of of growth and development. You know, it's upriver in so many ways. And there's opportunities to, you know, to bring vitality and nourishment at various stages along the river ecosystem. And I think there's I've been a little surprised that we you know, there aren't a lot of venues that bring all of these leaders across Christian education together to think together imaginatively.

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Speaker 1

I was just thinking, this is super cool that we're doing this podcast because this ecosystem is so diverse and it's it's often looked at as different pathways that don't intersect or don't have a crossroads.

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Speaker 2

Yeah, there's there's sort of separate tributaries. So you could be in church Christian education, you know, run a Christian education program and a church, big church, small church. And you might not know nothing about the campus ministries. You might not have a lot of knowledge about the Christian Studies Center movement, which is a newer movement. So that's not surprising.

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Speaker 2

You may not have any relationships with with faculty or administrators at a Christian college, and you could say the same for somebody, a Christian college or so. So I think creating opportunities for us to learn together to to share practices that seem to be working, we are, you know, if we stop and think about our own stories, I mean, you know, some of us came to faith.

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Speaker 2

I was a young adult. So I have virtually, you know, a very few I have some memories of Sunday school as a kid, but not like some people do. Others, you know, were deeply formed through Sunday school. Campus ministry played a significant role in my life, but it was a campus ministry geared to graduate students, not to undergraduate students.

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Speaker 2

So our stories are very different and we've benefited in different ways. And I think if we can if we can help to introduce participants of the ecosystem to one another, that I think will go a long way to to bring, you know, fresh growth and new opportunities.

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Speaker 1

Yeah. On that note, I'd like to take a little bit of a step back. So we've been talking about our own perspectives on this. I want to take a step back to our audiences perspective as we think about our audience, and hopefully we've had many people listening to a lot of these podcasts in the series already, if not all of them.

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Speaker 1

What are some of the takeaways you hope that the audience has gotten out of our conversations so far? I know we just we're talking about, but I'll start off with the ecosystem thing is really as we're talking about it and rumbling it over right now, it's a really exciting minute to think about whether it be prospective students or parents of students that they could be aware that there's a multitude of options to do it well.

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Speaker 1

And going down one path does not necessarily mean better than the other. It's about finding the path that best meets the need of the individual. Yeah, so that's something I really hope as I think about young people all the time and and what they're preparing for as they approach college life or what the next stage is after high school.

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Speaker 2

The ELL at that point I think that I hope the series will just open up the imagination and vision for possibilities that involve communication of all communities, of all educational institutions. My, my heart, my hope. And I think in some ways this plays out in reality is that Christian institutions are leading the way that they uniquely can see the image of God in all people, that they can open doors in ways that help young people and old people reach their capacity.

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Speaker 2

I mean, I was really moved today. Earlier today, we actually had an interview with Marco and Tessera and they run a church and a private Christian school here in Madison and work as a husband, wife, pastor, principal team and, you know, they they they work so hard with kids that come from difficult economic backgrounds, mostly kids of color, a lot of immigrant communities, African-American communities, Hispanic communities, they they work to open up all kinds of possibilities to imagine what a a trajectory of learning and possibility can look like.

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Speaker 2

So, you know, their rooms rather than room two or a room B, they name their rooms after colleges in the area, and they include colleges and universities. And they could vote vocational schools, technical schools, so that they're all the while saying whether you choose to go to a four year college or you choose not to go to college or you choose to go to a technical school, reach your capacity, we're going to help you here to fulfill your dreams.

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Speaker 2

We're going to help you learn and grow. And they put all of that out in front so these kids can see lots of possibilities. That, to me is fantastic. And that's what Christians institutions can do uniquely, I think, is see the image of God in people and work diligently to make it happen.

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Speaker 3

That's that's great. I'm I haven't heard that interview. So I'm looking forward to to listen to it.

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Speaker 1

It's really good. You'll enjoy.

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Speaker 3

It. Yeah. Yeah. I think the the sort of 10,000 foot insight I think we can be offering people is something about how precious maybe that's not the right word, but each of the people we're interviewing, they tend to be coming out of a particular institution and and many of them are leading these institutions. And, I don't know, just talking to them, getting a sense of how they came into the work that they're into, just like don't take anything for granted.

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Speaker 3

A lot of these things, a lot of these schools have been around for centuries, maybe certainly decades. A lot of the ministries we've talked to have been around a long time. And you sort of grow up, someone like me grows up and just takes these things for granted, like, oh, yeah, this is the landscape. And because we've had this crossroads metaphor and thinking about what's changing, realizing that a lot of these institutions that these leaders we're talking to, they're thinking about significant change in their own institutions, either in the recent past or in the recent or in the near future.

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Speaker 3

And and so the landscape might look a lot different in a few years. And that's what drew us into this topic, being interested in it. But it's something that I think we can often take for granted if we're not thinking sort of paying attention to what's actually going on and to hearing the stories of the people leading these places.

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Speaker 3

And so I think of someone like Carl Johnson leading the Consortium of Christian Studies centers, just how new that is, even though it's you know, I came into this work just a few years ago, sort of took for granted that there was a consortium, took for granted that there's a network, Carl, someone who's been in the Christian Studies in a world for decades.

00;25;21;27 - 00;25;51;29

Speaker 3

And he recalled during our conversation how that was, you know, something that had to emerge in in pretty recent history to really put it so that someone like me who joins in 2019 just sort of assumes that this is how the the way, you know, Christian study centers work. So I came that realization over and over again with the people I've been talking to So listeners don't don't take anything for granted and be curious about where these institutions have come from and where they might be going.

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Speaker 2

Yeah, I think our listeners can be heartened, encouraged by the amount of innovation that's taking place. I think sometimes it's easy to to look at education and think of it as one of those places that doesn't, you know, change very quickly. But boy, there's a lot of creative thinking that's taking place out of necessity at all levels. Institutions of higher education, Christian primary, secondary schools, churches are really wrestling with this stuff.

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Speaker 2

There's a lot of just really good creative work. Now, in some ways, this is a bit of an old story, and I want to draw Dan out, our historian, because we've always been doing Christian education from the very beginning in some of our conversations, you know, punctuate the story that goes way back right from from the first members of the church, right?

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Speaker 2

Yeah. I mean, this is all the way back to the very beginning and and even into the, you know, the the Hebrew scripture, you know, it's it's it's it's a story that's, you know, old and dated and and yet there's all kinds of new tools that are available. There's new ways that we're thinking about this I think even covered I mean we're finally hearing stories about COVID and lessons learned from a pandemic and how to educate and attend to emotional, physical and spiritual needs when you can't gather in person.

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Speaker 2

Yeah, So lots of really key learning that and and innovation. And I think that ultimately will serve students well families well and if if I were a parent or a student and listening, I would be encouraged to hear how hard these institutions are working.

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Speaker 1

To that note, one of my takeaways as well as a takeaway I'd hope our audience really gets as we are talking to some of the most prolific names in Christian education today in America at least, and to hear the heart that all of these people have had. Yeah, for Christian education, for students, for people desiring to learn and have a thirst and hunger for growing in their faith, as well as getting empowered in both their heart and their spirit and their mind is just overwhelming.

00;28;07;03 - 00;28;22;02

Speaker 1

Like the quality of people that we've had showing this level of character and the passion and enthusiasm and desire they have for continuing to grow the education is something that just has really, really encouraged me personally.

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Speaker 2

Yeah, I want to jump in here just really yeah, because I think that this is not an easy field to lead in right now. These people have committed their lives to Christian formation, Christian education. They could have an easier life in other industries. You think about higher education, Christian higher education, not a lot of margin for error. They are scrutinized by internal and external stakeholders, board members.

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Speaker 2

I mean, it's you know, it's a you know, it's a high demand, 24 seven kind of thing. And I, I think they're they're in it because they really care. Yeah.

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Speaker 1

That's really come.

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Speaker 2

Across and they want to see the church flourish. They want to see people flourish. Yes, they care about their particular institution, but they have a much larger, bigger vision for how this, you know, it is is good for our society at large.

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Speaker 3

You know, it's a it's a it's like a piece of folk wisdom that people don't join higher education unless they're really passionate about teaching. There's other things you could do that maybe don't come with the same frustrations or more pay or whatever. I think it's doubly so for Christian higher education. It's, you know, I don't want to glance or sort of gloss over some of the significant difficulties that a lot of our guests have talked about in terms of we talked a little about the demographic cliff.

00;29;49;09 - 00;30;04;06

Speaker 3

There's massive financial stresses in particularly Christian higher education. There's, you know, the unique pressures of church world where people have very, very strong opinions and invoking God on their on their side for their opinions and even.

00;30;04;06 - 00;30;13;02

Speaker 2

The cultural wars that they get caught up in trying to navigate just all the opposing forces and voices around hot button cultural issues.

00;30;13;06 - 00;30;38;15

Speaker 3

And particularly issues that touch on, you know, staying for someone like Shirley Hoekstra, for, you know, core issues around whether, you know, who university can hire, what sort of standards they can put on their faculty and students that strike for a lot of these colleges at the core of being a Christian college. So it's really, you know, certainly a doubly thankful, thankless industry to be in right now.

00;30;38;15 - 00;30;58;08

Speaker 3

Yeah, But, you know, at least in our interviews, you never got a sense that these people were complaining at all. I mean, maybe we should have had what would you complain about it? But but we really got a sense that they felt called into these areas. And yeah, it's always fun to talk to people who who who show that sort of spirit and commitment to their work.

00;30;58;08 - 00;30;58;15

Speaker 2

Yeah.

00;30;58;28 - 00;31;18;23

Speaker 1

Right. On that note, one of the things that I also surprised me when we were first setting out to do this, one of the things I thought we'd hear a lot more of is complaining, but not necessarily negative complaining, but talking about some of the challenges that I anticipated that really haven't come up a lot. And we even in some cases tried to get these things to come out and they just haven't been prevalent.

00;31;18;29 - 00;31;45;09

Speaker 1

So the big political intrigue, we've talked so much to people about Title nine and a few other things here in their state regulations, etc. and those things exist, but they've never been the focal point of how these people view their positions or their roles or how they lead their institutions. It's been very much a point of opportunity and an obstacle to work with and around, but not something that they feel impeded by which surprised me.

00;31;45;09 - 00;32;10;02

Speaker 1

I really thought that we'd get more people who look at these things as obstacles for achieving their goals in education or in Christian formation. So I've been really encouraged to see the way people have really not focused on those as challenges or obstacles to break down or overcome, but to be worked with and to be leading alongside the challenges because they exist for a reason.

00;32;10;02 - 00;32;24;24

Speaker 1

And I think that's been really awesome, but very much not what I anticipated, but that we get a lot more people talking about the the concrete ways that the political intrigue and regulations and things really impeded or even the financial considerations really impeded their goals.

00;32;25;06 - 00;32;46;10

Speaker 3

I wonder if you just thinking of the type of people who might rise to the leadership of these institutions. You know, I think you have to, John, you might be able to become this better, but you have to have a certain perspective that the challenges aren't insurmountable. And in fact, you know, are going to be overcome for what you're trying to do.

00;32;46;10 - 00;33;01;09

Speaker 3

So I wonder if there's a little selection bias and sort of, you know, talking to leaders of colleges and institutions, you know, you don't get to that position unless you have a certain way of compartmentalizing the problems and sort of focusing on on the positives.

00;33;01;09 - 00;33;14;19

Speaker 1

Yeah, I didn't really think about that when we set out. We never looked for a failed institution and try to interview the leader of the failed institutions. That would have been maybe an interesting pick to go in. I'm not sure I would have voted for it, but you know, it would have been an interesting take for sure.

00;33;14;20 - 00;33;15;07

Speaker 3

That's interesting.

00;33;15;12 - 00;33;41;07

Speaker 2

Yeah. I think the region of the country, I mean, we were mostly talking to leaders in the United States and I think the state environments really matter for Christian education, for the life of churches. I think there are I mean, it surprised me it came out that, you know, especially leaders that have, you know, have moved from an institution to another institution in a different state or different region of the country.

00;33;41;07 - 00;34;01;09

Speaker 2

They they notice the difference. Yeah, there are states that are more accommodating, states that are more restrictive. I think then the pressure swirl around in different kinds of ways. And that was something to actually get back to The surprise question. That was something that really surprised me. I would have imagined that would be true, but to that level was really expressed.

00;34;01;09 - 00;34;06;09

Speaker 2

Yeah, Yeah. As, as, as a unique shift depending on where you are.

00;34;06;18 - 00;34;33;12

Speaker 1

Yeah, well, I think I want to start wrapping up here, but I want to give you guys both an opportunity to talk about what it is that you are really hoping for in the next several conversations as we start to conclude the series, I'll go ahead and start off with. I'm really looking forward to interviewing you, John. I been attending an upper house events for, gosh, almost as long as you guys have been around.

00;34;33;28 - 00;34;39;18

Speaker 1

You never had a very cursory relationship over that time or over the last year. It's been growing a lot as I've been working with you a lot.

00;34;39;19 - 00;34;40;22

Speaker 2

More as you're coaching me.

00;34;40;22 - 00;35;03;12

Speaker 1

Yeah, I'm learning a lot from you as you along the way, John Don't worry. But I really am excited to learn more about the institution that's been near and dear to my heart that I don't know much about on the back end. I don't know much about how it started or the principles with which it's founded and getting to know about an individual study Centers experience is something I'm really excited about.

00;35;04;06 - 00;35;22;19

Speaker 2

Yeah, it's it's sort of a microcosm of this big movement, but I think a good a good microscope in I mean, I think there's some things that that we can that we can learn. And some of the tensions we felt, I think, would be indicative of the larger Christian formation. Christian education movement. Yeah. Good.

00;35;23;06 - 00;35;46;04

Speaker 3

I can talk about I'm excited for a couple interviews coming up that will be really focusing in on students and their experiences and serving students. So a lot of the conversations can be much more about institutions and sort of just running of institutions. I'm have a couple of conversations coming up talking about campus ministry, so a ministry serving students.

00;35;46;18 - 00;36;13;24

Speaker 3

And then we're going to interview a student, but really getting a sense of what are the benefits of a Christian, particularly sort of college education lived experience or what is actually done for people's lives or what can it do in the case of campus ministry. So that's just in the in the interviews I've had so far, I haven't gotten into sort of the lived experience of being a student in one of these types of institutions.

00;36;13;24 - 00;36;14;27

Speaker 3

So I'm excited for that.

00;36;17;00 - 00;36;41;21

Speaker 2

One of the things I'm excited about, and it's on my list of potential interviews, is to find and there are few names, a couple of individuals we'd like to speak to that are leading major flagship public universities. These people are people of faith, Christian conviction, but they're they're leading, you know, a large, secular, non-religious institution. And so how do you navigate those tensions?

00;36;41;21 - 00;36;57;17

Speaker 2

How do you create an environment that is truly welcoming to all residents of the state and far beyond right and including dimensions of faith and spirituality? And so, you know, that's that's an important set of interviews or yeah, I'm.

00;36;57;17 - 00;36;58;19

Speaker 1

Looking for that one to really.

00;36;58;19 - 00;37;08;23

Speaker 2

Want to explore. And so I think that will shed light on how we think about formation in places that aren't founded as Christian institutions.

00;37;09;16 - 00;37;30;21

Speaker 1

Awesome. Well, thank you guys very much for the conversation. I've learned a lot from you guys in terms of what you've taken away and what you're looking forward to. I am just so thankful for each of you and your heart for doing this work together for what we're bringing to our audience because of your hard efforts. So thank you both so much for everything that you're doing and for continuing on the good work.

00;37;30;23 - 00;37;43;24

Speaker 2

I'm glad we did this check and it's actually been really helpful to do this at the Midway point. It helps forces me to do some reflection and then to think about what we're most excited about, what we most need to complete this conversation.

00;37;43;24 - 00;37;52;05

Speaker 3

Yeah, same here. Thanks, Jesse, for your editorial work on all this stuff. To do that you're the the tie that binds it all together so far.

00;37;52;05 - 00;38;07;01

Speaker 1

Appreciate that. Thankfully, I don't have to do a lot of editing with these two. They're usually really great, but it is a pleasure to get to polish up a little bit here and there and get you guys the best product we possibly can. On that note. Thank you all for listening. We are grateful for all of our audience members.

00;38;07;20 - 00;38;30;21

Speaker 1

Please do like share, subscribe, Let people know what's going on. If you'd like a particular episode, be sure to let people know We're really wanting to make sure everybody who would benefit from this podcast gets a chance to hear it. Thanks for joining us. If you enjoyed today's podcast, be sure to subscribe and give us a reading on your favorite podcast app.

00;38;31;12 - 00;38;55;27

Speaker 1

Also, be sure to check out our upcoming events at Upper House dot org and our other podcast UpWords, where we dig deeper into the topics. Our in-house guests passionate about with Faith in Mind is supported by the Stephen and Laurel Brown Foundation. It is produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin, hosted by Dan Hummel and John Terril, our executive producer and editor is Jesse Koopman.

00;38;56;14 - 00;39;01;06

Speaker 1

Please follow us on social media with the handle at Upper House, UW.