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Hello and welcome to With Faith in Mind.

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I'm Dan Hummel, today's host

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and I'm also the director of university

engagement at Upper House.

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Today we're exploring the recent past and

near future of late Christian education.

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Those educational settings outside,

but often adjacent to the institutional

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structures of colleges and universities

and churches and seminaries.

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Part of our series on Christian Education

at the Crossroads.

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And in this episode, we welcome Dr.

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Charlie Cotherman to the show.

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Hi, Charlie.

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Hey, it's

good to be with you. Glad to be here.

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Excellent.

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I'm really excited to talk to you.

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I want to introduce you quickly

before we jump into the conversation.

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Charlie is probably first

and foremost the pastor

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at Oil City Vineyard,

a church in Oil City, Pennsylvania.

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He got his Ph.D.

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from the University of Virginia

in religious studies,

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and he's the author of Two

Think Christian Lee A History of Liberty

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Region College and the Christian Studies

Center Movement, a book of particular

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interest to us here at Upper House

since we're a Christian Studies Center.

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And Charlie is also the program director

at the Project

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on Rural Ministry,

which is at Grove City College.

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Charlie, there's one

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other thing

I wanted to mention with your biography

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that came out in looking up

your Pastor page

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at Oil City Vineyard, and it says that

at some point in your life

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you had a horribly failed run

at being a punk rock star.

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And as someone who's a fan of punk rock,

I want to know

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is there a short version of that story

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or is that a very long

and complicated story?

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No, we tried real hard. We had a band.

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We tried real hard. Right.

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And and eventually we realized that

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well, especially when our lead singer

found a girlfriend

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and decided he was done, that it was just

time to do something else.

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Well, if I can ask what years was like?

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What year? Eight?

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I was probably okay.

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I'd say to tell people

I had a quarter life crisis when I was 25.

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And, you know,

so hopefully I won't have a midlife one.

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That's right.

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Okay.

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Well, thinking

I mean, I'm a I'm a connoisseur, I guess.

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I was in high school in 2000 to 2004.

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So it was that was the high point of

it was sort of a golden age

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of a certain type of punk rock, at least.

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So I think a lot of us of that age

probably I guess you're a little older,

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but it was definitely the water,

sort of the the fall out. Boy.

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Yeah,

that pop punk band is pop punk stuff.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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We did some Fall Boy

covers. Yeah, for sure.

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That's right. All right.

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Awesome.

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Well, hopefully,

I don't think that'll come up again

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in our conversation,

but good to know anyway.

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Okay, so, Charlie, I'm.

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We've.

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We've known each other here

for a couple of years.

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A few years ago, we were able to write

at the beginning of COVID.

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Actually, I'm able to talk about your book

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to think Christian Lee here at Upper House

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and then also with a broader

study center audience.

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And so I just grew to appreciate

your perspective on the history

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of the sort of institutions

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that sit next to universities but aren't

usually affiliated with them, though.

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Are there a few that become affiliated

and are really striving

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to offer educational life of the mind type

opportunities for students while

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also supporting those students in the work

they're doing at these universities?

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And so as we're thinking

about Christian education

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in this series, we're trying to think

very broadly and trying to make sure

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we don't just go into the usual patterns

of thinking of sort of institutions

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like colleges and seminaries,

but also all of the types

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of other types of institutions

that also offer Christian education.

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Mm hmm.

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So that will be where we go.

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I did want to start with a slightly

more personal question, asking

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where your passions came from

for studying what you studied,

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sort of

this history of the study center movement.

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And then also you have a strong passion

for rural ministry.

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And those might

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look at it sort of different sectors

that don't overlap a lot on paper.

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But I wonder if you could just

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weave us a story

for how those things connect to you.

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Yeah, you know, I,

I think it's a lot of personal history.

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I am a person who believes that, like,

you know,

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the sovereignty of God

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works its way out in our lives

in all kinds of different ways.

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And so

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I like to to take into account

just the kind of places he puts us.

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So I happen to have been born and lived

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most of my life

in rural western Pennsylvania.

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And I, I think maybe God had a reason

for putting me here.

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And I'm trying to

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be faithful in this place and

to this group of people that I call my,

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you know, my own.

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That's mine

from childhood, you know, I inherited

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and then the study of evangelicalism

and the study center movement,

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it really was kind of a multistep thing,

but it was still out of that personal

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kind of I was in seminary.

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I was thinking about going into a Ph.D.

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program and I was working with

my advisor was Scott Sundquist,

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and we were kind of talking

about evangelicalism.

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And I realized

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that I spoke the language

of evangelicalism as an insider.

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Like this was like

I grew up listening to Dobson.

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And so I started studying evangelicalism,

but I also kind of had

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this persistent kind of

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story in my life where

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most of the evangelicalism

I knew was pretty anti-intellectual.

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And so I was always interested

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in evangelicals

who were really trying to think well.

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And so kind of through a series of twists

and turns,

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you know, I ran into Francis Schafer,

and I was interested in his later life,

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which was kind of political,

but also his early career

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and really the whole of his career,

which he did care about these questions.

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And then I happened to be

at the University of Virginia.

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You can't avoid the study center there.

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And so I was like, this is so fascinating.

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Look at all

these evangelicals trying to think, well.

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And so as I dug into that, I

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realized this other history I'm studying

and this history comes together.

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So it was kind of a perfect fit

to just jump right in.

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That's fascinating.

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Well, I think those things will come

through as we talk about

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particularly the history here.

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So I want to jump to the history

and I'm thinking of our listeners

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and trying to give a slightly

broader weave.

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We actually talked to Doug Strong.

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He's going to be on

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another one of the episodes, and he's

a historian of the Sunday school movement

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that goes all the way back

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to the 19th century

and even before he reads it in there.

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So we're going to have a slightly shorter

timeline here to talk about.

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But thinking about the last you know,

we talk about the postwar period,

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the period after World War Two, Right.

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The last 70 or so years.

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You know, one of the things that struck

me as I was thinking about

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the study center movement is

that a lot of it and you talk about this

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in your book, a lot of it

does trace back to that postwar period.

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So we're talking like the 1940s, 1950s.

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If we could go back to that period

in our minds here,

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what would Christian education

look like at that point?

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And what I'm trying to get a sense of is

what were the conditions

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for which a lot of these new types

of experimental institutions

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like study centers emerged out of

what was the sort of context

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and what was the need

that they were rising to meet?

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Yeah, it's a great question because

obviously nothing happens in a vacuum.

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And so when you think about that postwar

period in Christian education,

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you have to almost like have as a context

the kind of fundamentalist

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modernist controversy that happened before

and this kind of sense of,

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you know, circling the wagons,

creating our own institutions,

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the fundamentalists

creating their own institutions.

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Bible study, I mean, Bible institute

movement just growing by leaps and bounds.

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You know, in the thirties,

the Bible Institute movement grew

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so much as the Christian undergrad

colleges.

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Places like even Grove City just had such

increased enrollment during those years.

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So there is this push for Bible institutes

and even Christian

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liberal arts schools heading into

then obviously the GI Bill and stuff.

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Every higher ed institution

in the United States is gaining

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students and Christian universities

and colleges are there too.

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So you have this liberal arts

kind of college thing happening

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that's being buoyed up by the GI Bill

and all that.

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But as far as theological education goes,

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you know, there's a

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there's a group of neo evangelicals

led by people like Harold Washington,

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and they start trying

to kind of regain this.

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What they sense is this lost status

in society, this lost cultural voice.

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And so, you know,

you have the naive formed in in 1942,

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but then shortly thereafter

you have fuller in 47.

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So you have this kind of like,

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you know, professional clergy training

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that they're trying to be like,

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you know, model themselves after Princeton

to be an evangelical, Princeton, so on.

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For clergy,

you have this kind of renewed push,

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you know, and then you start

thinking about Trinity coming along

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and Gordon Cornwell in the late

sixties, you know, so there's a push for,

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you know, evangelical clerical training

that's that's top notch.

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But but the laity,

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there's not a lot for them

until some of these movements come along.

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That's interesting.

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So you're narrating sort of the

the way that

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if we go back

to the fundamentalist movement,

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a lot of Christians

who were more conservative theologically

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sort of pull out of their denominations

and pull out of the seminaries

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and the missions agencies

that had been a part of

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and they build their own institutions

that and I think this is where

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that your comment about

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some of the organizations you grew up in

were anti-intellectual.

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That was part of that pulling out

was actually pulling out

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of the intellectual conversations

that were happening in those spaces.

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And so by the time we get to the fifties,

there's a new set of institutions.

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You mentioned sort of Fuller Seminary

and then later some other ones come along

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that basically are in some ways

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starting over

or trying to think about how this new

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institutional context

where they're not connected to these older

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seminaries and colleges,

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how do they reconnect

with some of those bigger conversations,

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those bigger

intellectual concerns, questions

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in theology, in biblical studies,

but also in in other sectors.

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Does that sound about right?

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Yeah,

And I think the big distinction, too, is,

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you know, if you think about places

like Moody Bible Institute,

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like their goal was the evangelization

of the world, right?

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So they're trying to train evangelists.

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They're not thinking about top tier

academics.

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Now, when talking gay and fuller.

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And then eventually Billy

Graham got involved in Fuller Seminary.

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I mean, I think it's pretty clear

at the beginning he's

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trying to create, like the Caltech of the

theological education world,

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you know,

So now they're setting their sights on

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something different where they're saying,

we want to think really, really well

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and be people of faith.

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That's right.

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Yeah. That that's very interesting.

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So so we have that happening.

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And those Christian colleges,

many laypeople are going into those.

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I think of you know,

you have your classic ones, too,

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like Wheaton College

is growing at this time as well.

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You start talking in your research

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about these two particular strands

that are really important.

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One of them is L'Abri

and the other one is Region College.

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So let's start with L’Abri

and you mentioned Francis Schaeffer.

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He's this important sort of intellectual

figure in starting in the 1950s.

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But give us a sense of of ,

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which is totally different

than a Christian college, by the way.

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But give us a sense

of what was going on there.

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What was Liberace's sort of origin story

and what what what was it trying to do?

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Yeah, so Francis and is Schaefer

and it's hard to think of them apart

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from each other because they really both

formed libraries so much.

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Francis

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Schaefer was a pastor first and foremost

and really always was a pastor.

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He was never an actual academic

in any sense,

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but they were really,

really thoughtful, really capable.

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And so they have a lot of success

in America.

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And the pastor, they go bigger, bigger

churches, bigger, bigger cities,

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and eventually they become known as

these people that work well with children.

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So actually their denomination

asked them to go in 1948,

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in the postwar

Europe, to go and work with children.

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And while they're over there, he meets

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people like the art historian Hans

Macker and and,

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you know,

he starts in Europe does for Schaefer.

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It transforms him into this like person.

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He's always had liked art, but in Europe,

he can go to all the museums.

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And so he starts thinking,

Well, Europe's ahead

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when it comes to existentialism

and stuff like that.

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So he's in all these conversations

and and he really finds a home there

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after he kind of goes

through his own crisis of faith.

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And then he comes out on the other side.

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And what they decide together

is that they need to just make their house

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basically their mission field.

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And they're sending agency

doesn't like it.

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They actually cut off funds.

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And in 1955, as complete faith

missionaries with just a prayer list

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for support,

they start library, which means a shelter.

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And they decide they designed as a place

where anyone can come

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with their questions for coffee

and a meal.

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And that's what it really is.

00;13;11;12 - 00;13;14;03

For decades.

00;13;14;03 - 00;13;17;02

And that's so that should sound

really familiar to someone like me

00;13;17;02 - 00;13;18;19

who's running a study center now.

00;13;18;19 - 00;13;21;21

It's a right open space

where people have coffee. They

00;13;22;24 - 00;13;25;12

they do

bring their intellectual questions,

00;13;25;12 - 00;13;28;12

but they also just bring sort of life

questions into the space.

00;13;28;22 - 00;13;32;27

What's it like to be a 20 year old in,

you know, and dealing with those issues?

00;13;32;27 - 00;13;37;05

So obvious connection to

of course, there's a lot of twists

00;13;37;05 - 00;13;38;26

and turns of the story,

but obvious inspiration

00;13;38;26 - 00;13;42;16

for the study centers

which emerge much later.

00;13;42;16 - 00;13;43;02

Right.

00;13;43;02 - 00;13;46;20

And many people, many of the people in the

study center movement find their way

00;13;46;20 - 00;13;50;21

to Switzerland, to Waymo, Switzerland

and to library at some point.

00;13;50;21 - 00;13;54;10

So there is this kind of like net worth

growing through,

00;13;54;10 - 00;13;57;10

especially the late sixties

and early seventies.

00;13;57;12 - 00;13;57;29

Yeah, that's right.

00;13;57;29 - 00;14;00;15

And I actually think

of a couple of people on our staff

00;14;00;15 - 00;14;04;09

who either went to library,

the original one or libraries

00;14;04;09 - 00;14;07;17

now has, you know, camps

all over the world and has gone there.

00;14;07;26 - 00;14;12;12

Can you talk just briefly about

I think of someone on our staff, Cam

00;14;12;12 - 00;14;16;05

Anderson, who's our associate director,

who cites L’Abri or Seitz, Schaefer

00;14;16;15 - 00;14;20;18

and as a major inspiration

for why he became an artist.

00;14;21;01 - 00;14;23;16

And he grew up in the 6070s.

00;14;23;16 - 00;14;27;18

Can you just talk briefly

about Schaefer's vision for how

00;14;28;25 - 00;14;31;19

things that

maybe that anti-intellectual tradition

00;14;31;19 - 00;14;35;21

in evangelicalism pushed away

things like art

00;14;35;21 - 00;14;40;17

and sort of literature and history

and how Schaefer saw those things

00;14;41;06 - 00;14;44;08

connecting with the Bible

and with Christian faith.

00;14;44;25 - 00;14;45;07

Yeah.

00;14;45;07 - 00;14;49;19

So I can't think about this without

thinking of Abraham Kuyper, though.

00;14;49;19 - 00;14;53;21

Schaefer wasn't, you know,

a huge type parent, but in a sense,

00;14;54;02 - 00;14;57;08

I mean, that sense that it's all Jesus is,

right?

00;14;57;18 - 00;14;58;24

Schaefer modeled that,

00;14;58;24 - 00;15;02;22

and he he was able to communicate

that all of life matters to God.

00;15;03;11 - 00;15;06;06

And if you talk to people

and you listen to their stories

00;15;06;06 - 00;15;08;09

and you read what they wrote

from that period,

00;15;08;09 - 00;15;11;07

that was one of the main things

they got from Woodbury.

00;15;11;07 - 00;15;13;22

They, they, they sense love.

00;15;13;22 - 00;15;17;07

They sensed answers to prayer,

and they sense that all of life mattered,

00;15;17;22 - 00;15;20;22

including your mind, including culture,

including art.

00;15;20;25 - 00;15;25;20

And Schaefer was really was

one of the first prominent evangelicals,

00;15;26;06 - 00;15;28;29

even you might say

prominent fundamentalists

00;15;28;29 - 00;15;32;14

to to say art matters

enough to talk about it.

00;15;32;18 - 00;15;34;15

We're not just talking about evangelism.

00;15;34;15 - 00;15;35;25

We're not just going to be content

with our,

00;15;35;25 - 00;15;38;10

you know, same picture

everyone has in their Church of Jesus that

00;15;38;10 - 00;15;42;09

looks like a Swedish model or something

like, we're going to dig into art.

00;15;42;17 - 00;15;45;14

We're going to actually ask hard questions

00;15;45;14 - 00;15;48;21

and look at art

and appreciate that God uses it.

00;15;50;09 - 00;15;51;04

And that was true for all.

00;15;51;04 - 00;15;51;18

That's great.

00;15;51;18 - 00;15;55;07

So whether you were, you know,

wanted to be a pastor or an academic or,

00;15;55;19 - 00;15;58;19

you know, a writer or an artist, Schaefer

00;15;59;03 - 00;16;02;05

really believed that it all mattered.

00;16;02;20 - 00;16;03;01

Right.

00;16;03;01 - 00;16;06;01

And there's a whole generation of

of those what this the professions

00;16;06;01 - 00;16;09;13

you just listed of Christians

who would point to Schaefer

00;16;09;13 - 00;16;13;05

as a major inspiration

for them to go into those fields.

00;16;14;01 - 00;16;14;08

Okay.

00;16;14;08 - 00;16;17;09

So that's one really interesting

development

00;16;17;09 - 00;16;20;10

in the postwar period

is this L’Abri House model.

00;16;20;10 - 00;16;23;17

And you can see how the study centers

today are a version of that, though

00;16;24;23 - 00;16;27;23

there's not a direct line, but

there's definitely an indirect line there.

00;16;27;23 - 00;16;28;19

Actually, there is a direct line.

00;16;28;19 - 00;16;31;17

You mentioned that a lot of the study

center leaders

00;16;31;17 - 00;16;34;17

found their calling through places

like .

00;16;35;01 - 00;16;39;01

There's another strand you look at

and it's just as interesting,

00;16;39;01 - 00;16;43;26

I think, which is Region College,

a college that is still very active

00;16;44;22 - 00;16;46;26

and vibrant in Vancouver.

00;16;46;26 - 00;16;50;20

Tell us about the founding of that and

what the vision was behind region College.

00;16;51;01 - 00;16;56;00

Yeah, so Region

starts with the vision of a Plymouth

00;16;56;00 - 00;16;59;25

Brethren shoe merchant named Marshall

Marshall Shepherd in Vancouver

00;17;00;09 - 00;17;05;07

and and a brother

and community in Vancouver that was open.

00;17;05;07 - 00;17;06;18

They were the open brothers.

00;17;06;18 - 00;17;08;14

And so they were willing

to work with others

00;17;08;14 - 00;17;11;22

because some Plymouth brethren

are very much sectarian.

00;17;12;04 - 00;17;14;29

But in Vancouver,

this community was pretty affluent.

00;17;14;29 - 00;17;17;07

They were also they they were thoughtful.

00;17;17;07 - 00;17;19;05

They were open to working with others.

00;17;19;05 - 00;17;21;09

And so as they started talking,

they started to realize

00;17;21;09 - 00;17;24;25

that their children

were part of this post-World War two

00;17;25;17 - 00;17;28;11

were experiencing this growth

in education, and they were going

00;17;28;11 - 00;17;31;11

to probably want pastors

who were also educated.

00;17;31;14 - 00;17;32;09

The only problem

00;17;32;09 - 00;17;35;20

was that Plymouth brethren didn't ordain

actual professional clergy,

00;17;36;04 - 00;17;40;08

so they had to figure out how to help

their clergy get more education

00;17;40;15 - 00;17;43;24

while still emphasizing lay clergy.

00;17;44;06 - 00;17;48;09

And so what came out of that was this

vision for Regent College, which, though

00;17;48;09 - 00;17;52;20

it had from the beginning conversations

about professional clergy tracks.

00;17;52;20 - 00;17;57;20

Really the main stream of conversation

was sort of lay theological education.

00;17;57;20 - 00;18;00;22

A graduate lay theological education

00;18;00;25 - 00;18;03;05

that could come in a one year

diploma for people

00;18;03;05 - 00;18;06;24

that were going into the workforce

and just had a year kind of gap year.

00;18;07;07 - 00;18;11;13

Or it could come in a three year degree

that many would compare to professional

00;18;12;05 - 00;18;15;05

bachelor divinity, which is what

it was back then, or Master Divinity.

00;18;15;14 - 00;18;17;28

But it was for laypeople.

00;18;17;28 - 00;18;19;03

Mm hmm.

00;18;19;03 - 00;18;21;10

And it's it's interesting.

00;18;21;10 - 00;18;24;05

We actually have a pastor at my church

who went to Regent.

00;18;24;05 - 00;18;25;24

So it's interesting how they've expanded.

00;18;25;24 - 00;18;30;15

And many clergy are also,

you know, region graduates as well.

00;18;30;22 - 00;18;33;22

But that that core vision

as that interesting vision, it's one that

00;18;33;25 - 00;18;37;26

the lay vision is what inspires us here

at Upper House two, which is that

00;18;38;07 - 00;18;41;07

theological education

isn't just for clergy.

00;18;41;18 - 00;18;42;08

Mm hmm.

00;18;42;08 - 00;18;46;15

It can actually be very useful

for people who are engineers or

00;18;46;15 - 00;18;51;02

or lawyers or business like business

owners or anything like that.

00;18;52;11 - 00;18;55;11

One one thing that you highlight in

00;18;55;13 - 00;18;58;13

both of these stories, LaBrie

and Region College,

00;18;58;18 - 00;19;04;13

is how there was a little more space

for women to obtain theological education.

00;19;04;13 - 00;19;08;11

Can you just talk a little about

about that and why that was the case?

00;19;08;19 - 00;19;12;24

Yeah, I think that's

one of the really cool parts of this story

00;19;13;28 - 00;19;19;00

is how, you know, because Schaefer,

for the entirety of his life,

00;19;19;00 - 00;19;22;00

didn't believe in ordaining women,

but he would teach

00;19;22;22 - 00;19;24;26

a whole generation of young women

00;19;24;26 - 00;19;27;26

theology at liberty.

00;19;27;29 - 00;19;30;23

And what happened is because they weren't

00;19;30;23 - 00;19;34;04

ordaining and training ordained clergy,

00;19;35;03 - 00;19;39;02

if it was lay education,

it was open to anyone.

00;19;39;12 - 00;19;43;00

And so male or female,

you had an equal chance

00;19;43;14 - 00;19;45;14

at either of these institutions to learn.

00;19;45;14 - 00;19;50;21

And I think that was a beautiful thing

at that time, because within North

00;19;50;21 - 00;19;55;00

American evangelicalism at that time,

it was not easy to be a woman in seminary.

00;19;55;00 - 00;19;57;11

It was extremely difficult.

00;19;57;11 - 00;20;00;03

You would get called

into the dean's office because of,

00;20;00;03 - 00;20;03;20

you know, your outfit wasn't appropriate

according to their policy.

00;20;03;27 - 00;20;07;06

You know, it was just extremely difficult

to even get in.

00;20;07;06 - 00;20;09;25

You weren't allowed to take preaching

classes here.

00;20;09;25 - 00;20;10;13

It didn't matter.

00;20;10;13 - 00;20;13;05

You were just a learner

along with everyone else.

00;20;13;05 - 00;20;14;18

But you were learning

from some of the best.

00;20;16;19 - 00;20;18;07

Yeah, very interesting.

00;20;18;07 - 00;20;22;10

So we have an openness

and I would say the other

00;20;22;21 - 00;20;26;23

I don't want to diminish how this create

a huge opportunity

00;20;26;23 - 00;20;30;26

for women to learn theology,

but I think just returning to that idea

00;20;30;26 - 00;20;34;06

that theology wasn't just for the clergy,

it wasn't just for the people

00;20;34;06 - 00;20;38;07

who were going to maybe explicitly

use it in their line of work.

00;20;40;15 - 00;20;43;12

It was for the rest of us as well.

00;20;43;12 - 00;20;47;11

And I just want to reiterate

for the readers how interesting it is.

00;20;47;11 - 00;20;49;05

And this is

maybe the historian nerd coming out,

00;20;49;05 - 00;20;52;24

but how interesting it is that

this comes out of this Plymouth brethren,

00;20;52;24 - 00;20;56;09

which is a very small, obscure

00;20;56;09 - 00;21;01;17

to most of us, sect of Protestantism,

that for a variety of reasons,

00;21;01;17 - 00;21;04;20

one of their views is they you just don't

believe in professional clergy.

00;21;05;11 - 00;21;07;00

And so it made no sense

for a seminary, right?

00;21;07;00 - 00;21;09;28

Because that's the

for the professional clergy.

00;21;09;28 - 00;21;13;24

And and of course, most people who go to

Regent are not Plymouth brethren,

00;21;13;27 - 00;21;18;18

nor would they really be sympathetic

to a lot of Plymouth brethren theology.

00;21;18;27 - 00;21;22;28

But it's from that sort of, what would you

call it, an egalitarian, though?

00;21;22;28 - 00;21;24;23

That's the word I'd usually use

with the Plymouth Brethren.

00;21;24;23 - 00;21;27;22

But this egalitarian view of

who should be able to run a church

00;21;27;22 - 00;21;29;08

or who should

be able to teach in a church,

00;21;30;07 - 00;21;31;05

I also think

00;21;31;05 - 00;21;34;05

and try this might be in your book too,

that a lot of the

00;21;34;19 - 00;21;38;05

original vision in Plymouth

Brethren were led by vocational pastors,

00;21;38;05 - 00;21;40;09

so it was people who weren't

professional clergy

00;21;40;09 - 00;21;43;11

in the sense that they got their money

just from a church.

00;21;43;11 - 00;21;49;07

They were a clerk, and then they were also

a pastor on the side.

00;21;49;07 - 00;21;50;20

And so it also didn't make sense to have

00;21;50;20 - 00;21;53;20

this big professional degree

when most of their,

00;21;53;21 - 00;21;57;24

you know, days were spent doing something

else, doing some other profession.

00;21;58;22 - 00;21;59;01

Okay.

00;21;59;01 - 00;22;02;17

So hopefully listeners can see

as we're sort of weaving our way

00;22;02;17 - 00;22;06;20

through some of these innovations

through the postwar period,

00;22;07;05 - 00;22;11;24

how different institutions

are popping up to meet different needs

00;22;11;24 - 00;22;15;20

and to offer different visions

of what it could mean to be educated

00;22;15;28 - 00;22;18;28

as a Christian,

to have a lively life of the mind.

00;22;19;21 - 00;22;23;10

There's so many more examples,

Charlie, in your book,

00;22;23;19 - 00;22;26;19

but I want to just give room here.

00;22;26;24 - 00;22;31;00

Are there any sort of models

or forms of education that sort of come

00;22;31;00 - 00;22;31;28

to front of the mind

00;22;31;28 - 00;22;35;28

of this period beyond the L’Abri model,

the sort of house model and the region

00;22;35;28 - 00;22;36;29

college model?

00;22;36;29 - 00;22;37;05

You know

00;22;37;05 - 00;22;41;05

what else is going on in the seventies

eighties nineties that is is of interest.

00;22;41;14 - 00;22;44;21

Yeah,

well there's a lot of experimentation

00;22;45;00 - 00;22;48;17

right so the free university model

that's not a not

00;22;48;17 - 00;22;50;03

something

that Christians have a corner on.

00;22;50;03 - 00;22;54;06

But you know in San Francisco Bay Area

Berkeley,

00;22;54;17 - 00;22;58;09

you know there's a group of Christians

that are right there at the high watermark

00;22;58;09 - 00;22;59;10

of the counterculture,

00;22;59;10 - 00;23;00;04

and they start thinking

00;23;00;04 - 00;23;03;04

about free university in Berkeley

and they call it the Crucible, you

00;23;03;04 - 00;23;04;14

know, and out of that comes,

00;23;06;05 - 00;23;07;09

you know, a study center that

00;23;07;09 - 00;23;10;24

becomes a group that basically tries

to become like region educate

00;23;11;16 - 00;23;14;20

new college Berkeley,

educate laypeople with graduate degrees.

00;23;14;24 - 00;23;16;12

But it starts as this free university.

00;23;16;12 - 00;23;20;22

You know, the other innovative thing

and it happens at region but it's not

00;23;20;22 - 00;23;23;22

part of the story we've talked about

is when they start this summer school.

00;23;25;01 - 00;23;28;00

And so they actually launch Regent

with a summer school,

00;23;28;00 - 00;23;31;13

a six week summer school,

divided into three week sections.

00;23;31;28 - 00;23;35;07

And they do that two summers

before they launch their fall term in 70.

00;23;37;04 - 00;23;41;00

This summer school is really innovative

because it can

00;23;41;00 - 00;23;44;18

in your summer school, you can bring

John Stott, you can bring S.F.

00;23;44;18 - 00;23;44;28

Bruce.

00;23;44;28 - 00;23;48;17

They don't have to say, I'll live

in Vancouver and be on your staff, but

00;23;48;17 - 00;23;53;09

they can come and interact with whoever

can get there for a pretty low price.

00;23;54;00 - 00;23;56;11

And so a whole generation of L.A.

00;23;56;11 - 00;23;59;11

evangelicals are learning

from the cream of the crop.

00;23;59;24 - 00;24;02;21

And I think that does something to,

00;24;02;21 - 00;24;05;21

you know, even the evangelical landscape

in North America.

00;24;05;21 - 00;24;07;25

So the fact they had summer schools

and this gets picked up

00;24;07;25 - 00;24;09;26

by a number of other places,

the summer school model.

00;24;09;26 - 00;24;15;04

But but region because Houston, James

Houston, the first principal, had such

00;24;16;11 - 00;24;18;15

a deep appreciation for models.

00;24;18;15 - 00;24;19;23

He had the experience in Oxford.

00;24;19;23 - 00;24;22;23

He pulls this over from Oxford, England.

00;24;23;02 - 00;24;25;22

They they've kind of pioneered this.

00;24;25;22 - 00;24;30;21

And I think of just some of the ways

that that what the region is doing there

00;24;30;21 - 00;24;34;11

with the Summer Institute just has echoes

of things that were way older than that.

00;24;34;11 - 00;24;37;11

I think of like the Chautauqua circuit

00;24;37;20 - 00;24;40;17

and the way that, you know,

major names would come through

00;24;40;17 - 00;24;42;15

and everyone would get to learn

from these names.

00;24;42;15 - 00;24;43;18

And the draw.

00;24;43;18 - 00;24;46;18

This is obviously before any type of

00;24;47;12 - 00;24;50;09

video,

the online video or anything like that.

00;24;50;09 - 00;24;54;07

So the draw of being able to see

this person in person to learn from them

00;24;54;07 - 00;24;58;26

in the flesh is so high,

so and Vancouver is a pretty nice place.

00;24;58;27 - 00;25;01;08

If I remember in the in the summer,

you know, early summer.

00;25;01;08 - 00;25;06;09

So that's a great,

great place to, to, to study for a while.

00;25;06;24 - 00;25;09;11

And one thing okay

if I could add one quick thing.

00;25;09;11 - 00;25;10;16

Yeah. Yeah.

00;25;10;16 - 00;25;12;00

And along those lines is,

00;25;12;00 - 00;25;15;00

you know, just the beauty of Vancouver,

the beauty of the Swiss Alps.

00;25;15;09 - 00;25;18;19

I mean,

this was such a holistic experience.

00;25;18;19 - 00;25;22;04

It was the kind of experience

that that you never forgot and that,

00;25;22;16 - 00;25;24;05

you know, weeks

that might change your life

00;25;24;05 - 00;25;27;05

because you're at one of the most

beautiful places you've ever been.

00;25;27;05 - 00;25;32;04

You're being challenged to think broadly

about how Christianity can impact

00;25;32;04 - 00;25;33;10

every aspect of your life.

00;25;33;10 - 00;25;37;02

You're with some of the most

talented teachers the evangelical world

00;25;37;02 - 00;25;38;06

has to offer.

00;25;38;06 - 00;25;41;26

I mean, and then you're getting even

the meals are instructional.

00;25;41;26 - 00;25;44;29

You know, when either Schaefer presents

a multi-course meal

00;25;44;29 - 00;25;48;02

and the napkins are folded just right

and she has lists about how to butter

00;25;48;02 - 00;25;53;10

the bread to the very edge, I mean,

prepared, like it's all instructional.

00;25;53;10 - 00;25;56;27

It's all saying that life matters

embodied life,

00;25;56;27 - 00;25;59;16

which I think is a huge point

to make about this.

00;25;59;16 - 00;26;02;24

It's not just heads and brains on sticks,

00;26;02;24 - 00;26;05;24

but this is for all of you

that these people are.

00;26;06;00 - 00;26;07;26

Hmm, that's great. That's great. And that

00;26;09;01 - 00;26;09;22

that's one of

00;26;09;22 - 00;26;15;08

the arguments we make here at Upper House

for being a physical space where people

00;26;15;26 - 00;26;19;17

we're not just sort of distributing

videos or podcasts,

00;26;19;25 - 00;26;23;07

but we're actually a space

where people can come in and experience

00;26;23;07 - 00;26;26;12

hospitality, get to actually know

other people in the flesh.

00;26;26;12 - 00;26;28;16

And there is definitely

00;26;28;16 - 00;26;31;16

much more that happens

than just brain activity at that point.

00;26;31;16 - 00;26;34;16

It's a full body,

full spiritual experience.

00;26;35;06 - 00;26;37;23

Okay, So if listeners,

if they've been listening closely,

00;26;37;23 - 00;26;41;28

they might have detected

that there is some theological similarity

00;26;41;28 - 00;26;45;13

to some of these efforts.

00;26;45;13 - 00;26;48;15

So you you mentioned Charlie Piper, who's

00;26;48;15 - 00;26;51;25

this important figure in the Calvinist

sort of reform tradition.

00;26;52;05 - 00;26;54;22

That's where Schaefer came from as well.

00;26;54;22 - 00;27;00;04

I just wanted to give you space to talk

about the broader theological underpinning

00;27;00;15 - 00;27;05;14

that's underlying a lot of this desire

for Christian education.

00;27;05;14 - 00;27;09;29

And my my suspicion is it's

that there's a sort of reformed background

00;27;09;29 - 00;27;10;18

to a lot of it.

00;27;10;18 - 00;27;12;09

But if you could just talk a bit about

00;27;12;09 - 00;27;15;01

where the where people

are coming from theologically.

00;27;15;01 - 00;27;16;11

Yeah, yeah.

00;27;16;11 - 00;27;20;24

There's there is a reformed background,

but it's broadly reformed, you know, So

00;27;21;09 - 00;27;26;09

I mean, yeah, there's a Dutch reformed

like Kuyper, you know, Rock macher.

00;27;26;09 - 00;27;26;15

Yeah.

00;27;26;15 - 00;27;29;23

There's a Dutch reformed thread

that's coming through this and,

00;27;29;23 - 00;27;33;07

and this is a stream

that really does have an appreciation for,

00;27;33;16 - 00;27;35;22

you know, the gospel impacting of life,

00;27;35;22 - 00;27;38;06

an appreciation

for like a pluralistic society

00;27;38;06 - 00;27;40;06

where everything can compete

equally, you know, and

00;27;41;13 - 00;27;43;11

which they

would say would be good for everybody.

00;27;43;11 - 00;27;45;22

Christianity included in Christians

on the free

00;27;45;22 - 00;27;48;22

marketplace would probably do pretty well

because their beliefs are true.

00;27;49;19 - 00;27;52;19

But then, you know, there's

also this kind of broadly reformed,

00;27;53;00 - 00;27;55;22

like even Luther, you know,

the sense of table talk, you know,

00;27;55;22 - 00;27;58;02

and that shows up at the Ligonier

Valley Study Center.

00;27;58;02 - 00;28;00;28

They call their first publication

Table talk.

00;28;00;28 - 00;28;05;22

And and there's a sense in which

Luther took the scripture to the masses

00;28;05;22 - 00;28;07;05

in the vernacular and

00;28;07;05 - 00;28;10;02

and thought, you know,

that women should learn at the table, too.

00;28;10;02 - 00;28;13;09

And and

and so there is this just broadly reformed

00;28;14;07 - 00;28;16;06

part of that's

an appreciation for scripture.

00;28;16;06 - 00;28;19;06

Most of these places value scripture

very highly.

00;28;20;19 - 00;28;24;06

You know,

so there's a broadly reformed element

00;28;24;06 - 00;28;27;11

to it, though I wouldn't want to call it

strictly Calvinist.

00;28;27;11 - 00;28;29;03

I mean, you have Plymouth brethren, right?

00;28;29;03 - 00;28;32;03

But they have they're working with

Anglicans and Presbyterians, you know.

00;28;32;17 - 00;28;32;25

Right.

00;28;32;25 - 00;28;36;11

There is an interdenominational part

of that as well.

00;28;36;29 - 00;28;40;05

If we could just we're going to move soon

to the to the present moment.

00;28;40;05 - 00;28;43;24

But Charlie is someone who spent

a lot of time thinking about all these

00;28;43;24 - 00;28;45;04

different manifestations

00;28;46;02 - 00;28;47;14

over the postwar period.

00;28;47;14 - 00;28;51;26

And, you know, many of them are still in

existence or in are doing quite well.

00;28;52;06 - 00;28;55;05

But if you were to just sort of grade it,

00;28;55;05 - 00;28;59;01

what would be some of the biggest

strengths of these types of efforts?

00;28;59;01 - 00;29;02;03

And we're going to bound them together

in sort of the study center type

00;29;03;14 - 00;29;04;22

model.

00;29;04;22 - 00;29;08;20

What are some of the biggest strengths

of that of this movement, this effort?

00;29;08;26 - 00;29;11;29

And then what are a few of the weaknesses

or the challenges that

00;29;13;07 - 00;29;16;02

these types of efforts

at Christian Education face?

00;29;16;02 - 00;29;20;02

Yeah, well,

the strengths we've named some of them.

00;29;20;02 - 00;29;24;11

I mean, just the way in which people

from all walks of life

00;29;26;05 - 00;29;28;12

could take some time to think

00;29;28;12 - 00;29;31;19

Christian about their vocation

and their profession.

00;29;32;02 - 00;29;35;12

I mean, I think that was a strength,

that it wasn't just for clergy

00;29;35;12 - 00;29;36;29

asking the same kind of questions,

00;29;36;29 - 00;29;39;08

but as for people

asking a whole range of questions.

00;29;39;08 - 00;29;42;27

They may not even believe in the Lord yet,

you know, So that was especially L'Abri.

00;29;42;27 - 00;29;45;11

I mean, there were all kinds of people

that did not believe

00;29;45;11 - 00;29;47;14

God even existed there, you know?

00;29;48;18 - 00;29;51;18

So that

was a strength, I think a strength was

00;29;51;22 - 00;29;54;27

how quick on their feet so many of these

places were because they were small

00;29;54;27 - 00;29;58;19

and they weren't huge institutions,

you know, with, you know, pensions to pay.

00;29;58;19 - 00;30;03;05

I think being able to be quick on

your feet was was a strength

00;30;03;05 - 00;30;07;02

be, you know, needing to be ecumenical

to some degree.

00;30;07;02 - 00;30;09;07

You know,

00;30;09;07 - 00;30;12;19

this sense of Lewis's mere

Christianity was something that,

00;30;12;20 - 00;30;15;14

you know, maybe not as much at liberty,

but definitely at Regent

00;30;15;14 - 00;30;18;14

and some of these other places

was was at the forefront.

00;30;18;17 - 00;30;21;11

So there were a lot of strengths

just around accessibility.

00;30;21;11 - 00;30;24;11

And I think some of those strengths

actually become

00;30;24;11 - 00;30;27;29

or or become maybe not

they don't become weaknesses,

00;30;27;29 - 00;30;32;12

but they end up kind of decreasing in

how much of a strength

00;30;32;12 - 00;30;36;09

they actually are as the years

go on as things change.

00;30;36;09 - 00;30;38;14

So now when I think about

00;30;40;13 - 00;30;43;13

when I think about accessibility,

00;30;43;13 - 00;30;46;20

a lot of these study centers

don't seem super accessible anymore

00;30;46;21 - 00;30;50;06

to like the average American Christian

00;30;50;19 - 00;30;53;24

unless you have time and money

to spend time somewhere.

00;30;54;07 - 00;30;58;17

You know, it's hard to get there unless

you get into a fairly elite university.

00;30;58;17 - 00;31;01;09

You know,

it's hard to get to a study center.

00;31;01;09 - 00;31;02;27

They're not everywhere.

00;31;02;27 - 00;31;07;04

So I think as accessible

as they initially were,

00;31;07;05 - 00;31;10;21

they're actually not very accessible

to a wide range of people anymore.

00;31;11;06 - 00;31;14;22

And that's that's something that does

concern me and we can get into that later.

00;31;14;22 - 00;31;17;22

But it's something I think about.

00;31;18;17 - 00;31;20;04

I think another weakness

00;31;20;04 - 00;31;24;00

is, you know, these strengths

and weaknesses are so interconnected.

00;31;24;00 - 00;31;27;17

So the strength is they can move quickly,

they're independent, they can they

00;31;27;23 - 00;31;28;18

they're quick on their feet.

00;31;28;18 - 00;31;29;09

But the weakness

00;31;29;09 - 00;31;32;15

is that sometimes personalities

just drive the whole thing, you know?

00;31;32;15 - 00;31;36;07

And if the personality goes off the rails,

the whole thing goes off the rails

00;31;36;07 - 00;31;39;12

or the personality passes away, like,

00;31;40;04 - 00;31;42;26

is there someone to pick up the reins,

you know?

00;31;42;26 - 00;31;45;29

And that was region

strength is they had an amazing team.

00;31;46;13 - 00;31;49;13

Houston gets a lot of credit

and he deserves a lot of credit.

00;31;49;27 - 00;31;54;17

He was the charismatic leader,

but Regent did so

00;31;54;17 - 00;31;58;12

well because they had an amazing,

amazing and big team.

00;31;58;29 - 00;31;59;04

Yeah.

00;32;00;05 - 00;32;01;02

Yeah.

00;32;01;02 - 00;32;07;01

I love thinking about those challenges

as sort of different variations

00;32;07;01 - 00;32;11;09

on the strengths, and I think we can move

toward particularly that accessibility.

00;32;11;09 - 00;32;16;10

Question When I heard you say

that I was thinking about the,

00;32;17;24 - 00;32;22;09

well, exactly what you said, the way that

we there's about 30 study centers now.

00;32;22;09 - 00;32;24;16

We're just going to talk about study

centers.

00;32;24;16 - 00;32;29;04

The 35 most of them are obviously on

college campuses.

00;32;29;04 - 00;32;30;12

That's sort of the model is you

00;32;30;12 - 00;32;32;13

you plant yourself

next to a college campus

00;32;32;13 - 00;32;36;00

and you serve the students and the faculty

at that university or college.

00;32;36;27 - 00;32;40;17

But many study centers and I'd say upper

house is in the mix

00;32;40;17 - 00;32;44;06

there at the University of Wisconsin,

want to be near elite

00;32;45;09 - 00;32;48;28

universities, universities

that have rankings and resources

00;32;48;28 - 00;32;53;10

and some of the best faculty,

some of the brightest students. And

00;32;54;10 - 00;32;56;19

and of course, that's a very small segment

00;32;56;19 - 00;32;59;27

of American society

that ever goes through those things.

00;33;00;25 - 00;33;04;05

Can you just talk about Well,

I want to hear

00;33;04;12 - 00;33;05;09

if you have any more thoughts

00;33;05;09 - 00;33;08;13

on that sort of development

in the study center movement.

00;33;08;13 - 00;33;11;13

I know there's other models for that.

00;33;11;13 - 00;33;14;24

I think of InterVarsity Christian

Fellowship, which is really emphasize

00;33;14;24 - 00;33;17;23

trying to create chapters

at Christian community colleges.

00;33;18;00 - 00;33;19;20

That's some of their new efforts,

00;33;19;20 - 00;33;22;20

which are obviously

a different group of students.

00;33;22;21 - 00;33;26;28

But also as someone who works

in the rural setting.

00;33;27;02 - 00;33;30;02

For a lot of your work,

00;33;30;20 - 00;33;31;11

I guess, how do you

00;33;31;11 - 00;33;35;25

how do you see that

development of a lot of the effort

00;33;35;25 - 00;33;39;21

for Christian education

being focused on elite university

00;33;40;27 - 00;33;42;20

students and faculty?

00;33;42;20 - 00;33;46;05

Yeah, well, I see a couple of

different ways on the one level.

00;33;46;15 - 00;33;48;21

On one hand, I think it's excellent.

00;33;48;21 - 00;33;53;03

I mean, it makes a lot of sense

and I think it's should be happening,

00;33;53;18 - 00;33;56;18

you know, because these are places

that are shaping our culture.

00;33;56;21 - 00;33;59;21

These are places where there are funds

00;33;59;22 - 00;34;03;12

usually available to do this kind of work

because it does take money.

00;34;04;27 - 00;34;08;01

There's alumni

pools that care about thinking well.

00;34;08;01 - 00;34;10;17

So it does make sense

I don't hold anything against it.

00;34;10;17 - 00;34;11;19

In fact,

00;34;11;19 - 00;34;14;21

you know,

if there's 30 more elite universities,

00;34;14;21 - 00;34;16;17

they should all have a study center,

in my opinion.

00;34;16;17 - 00;34;19;17

You know, Now, I will also say

00;34;20;12 - 00;34;24;08

I think the consortium and the movement

00;34;24;08 - 00;34;27;15

and those who are willing to invest in it

00;34;27;15 - 00;34;31;22

should think carefully

about trying to broaden their efforts.

00;34;32;08 - 00;34;35;08

The smaller schools, you know,

00;34;37;04 - 00;34;39;06

because

00;34;39;06 - 00;34;42;15

there is a there is a divide

00;34;43;05 - 00;34;46;16

in kind of historically orthodox

Christianity in the United States

00;34;46;16 - 00;34;52;02

between kind of those

who who living in urban and suburban

00;34;52;02 - 00;34;56;19

centers, near great institutions, with

great communities of thoughtful leaders

00;34;57;02 - 00;35;00;20

and those who live in most of the rest

of the country, where you just don't

00;35;00;20 - 00;35;04;16

always have even you don't even know

that's out there, you know.

00;35;04;16 - 00;35;08;00

And so my heart is for the smaller places

00;35;08;19 - 00;35;11;14

to actually to see more of these pop up.

00;35;11;14 - 00;35;13;25

And the thing about it

is, and I tell people this about church

00;35;13;25 - 00;35;17;01

planting, too, is

you could probably develop four

00;35;17;01 - 00;35;21;00

or five study centers at smaller colleges

for the cost of one, you know, at a

00;35;21;02 - 00;35;24;13

at a major institution, you know,

because just the cost of living

00;35;24;13 - 00;35;26;07

and everything is so much lower.

00;35;26;07 - 00;35;30;04

So I think there's a lot of need,

but I think there's a lot of potential

00;35;30;20 - 00;35;31;19

in smaller places.

00;35;32;23 - 00;35;33;10

Have you given

00;35;33;10 - 00;35;37;01

thought to what were they

and maybe these exist might be ignorant.

00;35;37;04 - 00;35;40;04

What would a study center

that's at a more rural,

00;35;40;04 - 00;35;43;01

you know, in a more rural community,

maybe that's not even the right model.

00;35;43;01 - 00;35;44;02

Maybe we can think about that.

00;35;44;02 - 00;35;46;02

What's the right way to think about it?

00;35;46;02 - 00;35;48;20

But what would be

the defining marks of that?

00;35;48;20 - 00;35;53;03

Like how how would you best serve

a rural community and how would that look

00;35;53;03 - 00;35;57;03

differently than serving

a, you know, a dense university community?

00;35;57;03 - 00;35;58;03

Yeah.

00;35;58;03 - 00;36;01;05

I think a lot of it would be scale.

00;36;01;28 - 00;36;03;16

You know,

it just wouldn't have to be as big.

00;36;03;16 - 00;36;05;13

But I mean,

I think it'd have the same kind of things.

00;36;05;13 - 00;36;08;16

Kitchen, library,

you know, places for studying,

00;36;11;04 - 00;36;14;08

read books on offer courses,

maybe not as many, but a couple

00;36;14;08 - 00;36;17;28

of courses semester on offer to think

well about something.

00;36;18;06 - 00;36;20;14

So a lot of it's actually pretty similar.

00;36;20;14 - 00;36;24;06

You you would find some faculty

who are well trained who are Christian and

00;36;24;06 - 00;36;25;03

who would want to help,

00;36;27;05 - 00;36;29;19

you know,

instead of having a 17,000 person

00;36;29;19 - 00;36;33;12

university or a 40,000 person university

might have a 6000 person university.

00;36;33;12 - 00;36;37;04

But still a lot of people in a part

of rural, you know, wherever you're at,

00;36;37;19 - 00;36;41;11

you know,

so I think and then some of these colleges

00;36;41;11 - 00;36;44;09

are actually close enough where

you might be able to have some overlap.

00;36;44;09 - 00;36;47;28

You know, you might be able to be

in one building, rented space for two days

00;36;47;28 - 00;36;50;01

and then another one at the other place

for two days.

00;36;50;01 - 00;36;53;01

You know,

you could think creatively about it,

00;36;53;01 - 00;36;56;01

I think along the lines of how

you might think about church planting.

00;36;57;19 - 00;36;59;14

So I think I think it could be done.

00;36;59;14 - 00;37;02;16

I mean, it does take

00;37;02;23 - 00;37;04;27

a blend of skills, right?

00;37;04;27 - 00;37;07;27

You need to be able to have people

leading these who can think well

00;37;08;02 - 00;37;11;11

and have credentials of some kind, though

maybe they don't need terminal grace

00;37;11;17 - 00;37;16;05

to the same extent, but they need to be

be the right kind of thoughtful people.

00;37;16;05 - 00;37;16;22

But at the same time,

00;37;16;22 - 00;37;20;19

they need to have their ear to the ground

and be aware of the context, you know?

00;37;20;22 - 00;37;24;26

Yeah, there's going to be ways

and tones of conversation

00;37;24;26 - 00;37;27;26

that might be different

in different communities.

00;37;28;00 - 00;37;28;25

Right? Right.

00;37;28;25 - 00;37;29;17

Yeah, different.

00;37;29;17 - 00;37;32;17

Different interest

bubbling up from the community itself.

00;37;32;24 - 00;37;35;14

I do want to just as I was thinking,

as you were talking,

00;37;35;14 - 00;37;38;00

there are study centers

that are at much smaller colleges.

00;37;38;00 - 00;37;39;09

I think of the C.S.

00;37;39;09 - 00;37;41;27

Lewis Center

that's in Northfield, Massachusetts,

00;37;42;28 - 00;37;45;23

which is a very historic site for that's

where Dwight

00;37;45;23 - 00;37;50;08

Moody has a lot of his revival

ministry headquartered.

00;37;50;08 - 00;37;51;27

But it's a pretty small town now.

00;37;51;27 - 00;37;56;10

And I don't exactly

I don't recall the university

00;37;56;10 - 00;37;58;09

or college

they serve, but it's a small one

00;37;58;09 - 00;38;00;17

because it's small town,

but there are a few of those.

00;38;00;17 - 00;38;03;05

But I think the

the ones that certainly gather

00;38;03;05 - 00;38;06;12

the most resources are places

like University of Minnesota,

00;38;06;12 - 00;38;09;12

University of North Carolina,

University of Wisconsin.

00;38;10;05 - 00;38;13;05

These are these bigger schools.

00;38;13;26 - 00;38;14;07

Okay.

00;38;14;07 - 00;38;18;23

I want to ask a different sort

of a question that's slightly different.

00;38;18;23 - 00;38;21;23

But as someone who is a pastor, Charlie,

I wondered

00;38;22;07 - 00;38;24;20

if you had some thoughts on this,

which was

00;38;24;20 - 00;38;27;20

what is the proper role

00;38;27;22 - 00;38;31;27

of Christian education for the church

and for these other ministries?

00;38;31;27 - 00;38;35;22

And I wonder I've wondered this in in

just my own setting,

00;38;36;06 - 00;38;36;29

not even thinking

00;38;36;29 - 00;38;40;27

about working at Upper House,

but interest in my own church, wondering,

00;38;40;27 - 00;38;43;03

you know, sort of

what should I be looking to

00;38;43;03 - 00;38;46;00

from the church

in terms of intellectual formation,

00;38;47;19 - 00;38;50;19

exposure

to sort of ideas that are challenging

00;38;50;19 - 00;38;53;26

to the faith

or sort of sophisticated theology

00;38;54;25 - 00;38;57;11

that I can use to bolster my faith

00;38;57;11 - 00;38;59;28

versus going to,

00;38;59;28 - 00;39;02;26

you know, a college or a seminary

or even going to a study center

00;39;02;26 - 00;39;05;24

or a campus ministry or something else.

00;39;05;24 - 00;39;07;15

As a pastor, how do you think about that?

00;39;07;15 - 00;39;10;11

How do you think about sort of

what's in your what do you want to shape

00;39;10;11 - 00;39;13;29

and what do you want to sort of outsource

to other ministries to shape?

00;39;13;29 - 00;39;15;14

Right.

00;39;15;14 - 00;39;17;04

Yeah,

And it depends where you're at, right.

00;39;17;04 - 00;39;21;21

Because the reality is, as a pastor

where I am, I can't outsource much at all.

00;39;22;05 - 00;39;25;18

If I outsource

it is to the radio or to cable television.

00;39;26;00 - 00;39;26;10

Right.

00;39;26;10 - 00;39;29;16

So so for me, there has to be a way

00;39;30;21 - 00;39;34;01

when I think about it, I have to think,

what do I really want to convey?

00;39;34;01 - 00;39;37;01

And that has to be a part of what

our church does.

00;39;37;01 - 00;39;40;02

So, you know, just for me,

it often comes down to just like

00;39;41;12 - 00;39;43;20

theologically robust,

00;39;43;20 - 00;39;47;05

thoughtful teaching,

you know, from the pulpit primarily,

00;39;47;26 - 00;39;50;25

or of course, here

and there, you know, on a topic.

00;39;51;13 - 00;39;54;11

But I do think, you know,

if you have the luxury

00;39;54;11 - 00;39;57;11

of having options available,

which is a great thing to have,

00;39;58;05 - 00;40;01;04

it's probably more of a question

and the thing

00;40;01;04 - 00;40;04;04

as I was thinking about this even ahead

of our conversation, I was thinking

00;40;04;24 - 00;40;07;21

what what I really think needs to happen.

00;40;07;21 - 00;40;09;16

And this is happening to some degree,

though

00;40;09;16 - 00;40;13;12

I think there's always room for

more is a real partnership

00;40;13;12 - 00;40;17;13

between local churches and institutions

like study centers,

00;40;17;13 - 00;40;21;05

you know, or seminaries

or whatever you have in your vicinity.

00;40;21;05 - 00;40;24;21

Like that

geographic proximity does matter.

00;40;25;01 - 00;40;30;02

So a sense of partnership

for the good of the gospel in the kingdom

00;40;30;19 - 00;40;33;21

and a sense that we don't have to do

all the same things we can like

00;40;33;22 - 00;40;34;20

share the load.

00;40;34;20 - 00;40;36;03

I think that is a really good

00;40;36;03 - 00;40;39;12

like if there's a sense of partnership

and teamwork because honestly,

00;40;40;10 - 00;40;44;18

like some of the really thoughtful

intellectual conversations,

00;40;44;26 - 00;40;47;05

you really may not want to have

those at the church

00;40;47;05 - 00;40;50;07

because some of the people, half

the people may not be ready for it

00;40;50;20 - 00;40;54;22

because we're hoping our churches

are actually quite diverse on every level,

00;40;55;08 - 00;41;01;02

you know, And so the church on some level

has to be about the main and the plain,

00;41;02;07 - 00;41;05;07

the just the gospel, the sacraments,

00;41;05;08 - 00;41;08;08

the fellowship of believers,

00;41;08;10 - 00;41;08;20

you know?

00;41;08;20 - 00;41;10;01

And so some of this is actually is

00;41;10;01 - 00;41;13;01

better suited for a study center

or something like that.

00;41;13;02 - 00;41;16;13

But if there's a partnership that can be

that can be really beautiful.

00;41;17;23 - 00;41;17;28

Yeah.

00;41;17;28 - 00;41;21;25

And I think of someone that we work

with here pretty regularly.

00;41;22;00 - 00;41;22;21

His name's Christopher

00;41;22;21 - 00;41;25;21

James Dean at the University of Dubuque

Theological Seminary.

00;41;25;23 - 00;41;26;23

But he often

00;41;26;23 - 00;41;29;24

he does a lot of work in Madison,

and he talks about sort of ecosystems

00;41;29;24 - 00;41;34;09

as the way to think about sort of church

or ecclesial eagle ecosystems.

00;41;35;11 - 00;41;40;02

Most institutions, whether they're

churches or study centers are often

00;41;40;02 - 00;41;43;25

just thinking about their own work

and and how we can do our work better.

00;41;44;25 - 00;41;47;13

But we all exist in these ecosystems

where if we think

00;41;47;13 - 00;41;50;13

in those terms, we can make partnerships

and have a bigger vision

00;41;50;27 - 00;41;54;05

than just our

our individual institutions can offer.

00;41;54;20 - 00;41;55;16

Yeah, yeah.

00;41;55;16 - 00;41;59;08

In my notes I had prepared,

I had this line

00;41;59;08 - 00;42;02;21

monocultures and ecosystems

written down ahead of our conversation,

00;42;02;21 - 00;42;06;10

because I do think like

that is an important thing to think about.

00;42;06;15 - 00;42;09;09

Not exactly on those lines, but

but I think it is.

00;42;09;09 - 00;42;11;01

That idea makes a ton of sense. But,

00;42;12;06 - 00;42;14;18

you know, this sense of like

00;42;14;18 - 00;42;17;20

we if we only do one thing sometimes.

00;42;18;18 - 00;42;21;27

So I'm thinking about like the way

we try to communicate.

00;42;22;14 - 00;42;26;19

So, for instance,

you know, video, video teaching, right?

00;42;26;19 - 00;42;30;09

Like Ligonier Valley Study Center,

like they went from an ecosystem

00;42;31;21 - 00;42;37;06

that took in their context, took in a lot

of kind of holistic sense of their place

00;42;37;06 - 00;42;42;02

and was connected to other ministries

by virtue of necessity to a monoculture.

00;42;42;02 - 00;42;43;24

And then that was that was also negative.

00;42;43;24 - 00;42;46;24

So it can't be just like we do arts

and we're fine.

00;42;46;29 - 00;42;50;20

It has to be this integrated

ecosystem idea.

00;42;50;20 - 00;42;51;23

Yeah. Yeah.

00;42;51;23 - 00;42;54;10

And that it's interesting

to think about that geographically too,

00;42;54;10 - 00;42;56;17

because I think I mean, we're doing this

on a podcast right,

00;42;56;17 - 00;43;00;03

so it's sort of it's one version of that

where we're going to beam this out

00;43;00;03 - 00;43;04;29

and anyone from anywhere can take it

and we hope more and more people do it.

00;43;05;10 - 00;43;08;09

But there is something lot and we talk

about this with with other stuff we do.

00;43;08;09 - 00;43;12;16

There's something lost when you remove

the embodied context of upper house.

00;43;13;01 - 00;43;16;14

And that isn't to say that

that what we're doing isn't worthwhile,

00;43;16;14 - 00;43;17;26

but it is to say that it's a it's

00;43;17;26 - 00;43;22;03

a different type

than when we actually host groups here

00;43;22;04 - 00;43;26;13

or when we have an event where we have

people from the community coming in and,

00;43;27;20 - 00;43;28;11

you know,

00;43;28;11 - 00;43;29;11

for a variety of reasons,

00;43;29;11 - 00;43;32;12

including the ease of the Internet

and mass media and stuff,

00;43;32;13 - 00;43;35;29

the things that can scale well tend to be

the things that you mentioned,

00;43;36;12 - 00;43;40;16

you know, cable news

and on, you know, Internet holding.

00;43;40;16 - 00;43;41;27

And those are

the things that are accessible

00;43;41;27 - 00;43;44;21

to everyone, everywhere, all the time.

00;43;44;21 - 00;43;45;25

But there are those monocultures

00;43;45;25 - 00;43;49;17

right there, the things that sort of offer

the same message to everyone.

00;43;49;17 - 00;43;52;25

And it's usually the, you know, the

harshest message or the clearest message.

00;43;53;29 - 00;43;57;20

And I guess that's a question

that's just coming to mind right now.

00;43;58;01 - 00;43;59;27

Charlie, as you've

00;43;59;27 - 00;44;02;21

been pastoring for a few years now,

00;44;02;21 - 00;44;05;21

how much of your Christian education

work is

00;44;06;16 - 00;44;09;16

sort of trying to build up

00;44;10;14 - 00;44;11;13

theological

00;44;11;13 - 00;44;15;02

or other knowledge in your in the people,

either

00;44;15;02 - 00;44;18;04

your students or parishioners

and congregants?

00;44;19;02 - 00;44;22;21

And how much of it is is fighting

against these other information

00;44;23;28 - 00;44;26;00

sources that are

00;44;26;00 - 00;44;30;02

not that not that before cable news people

weren't getting formed by other things.

00;44;30;02 - 00;44;34;06

But I think a lot of people think

it's intensified in recent years.

00;44;34;06 - 00;44;37;09

But is that something you think

about sort of how much of are you trying

00;44;37;09 - 00;44;41;18

to undo things versus trying to build

build from a solid foundation?

00;44;42;02 - 00;44;46;01

Yeah, I mean, and information is something

I think about a lot.

00;44;46;01 - 00;44;50;13

And the formation information, as you guys

know, happens to us all the time,

00;44;50;13 - 00;44;52;24

whether we want it to or not.

We're always being formed.

00;44;52;24 - 00;44;57;18

And, and so I think about it a lot

and sometimes it is a catch 22.

00;44;57;18 - 00;45;00;11

I don't love that

our church uses social media,

00;45;00;11 - 00;45;03;07

but it seems like

we have to use social media.

00;45;03;07 - 00;45;06;07

But I wonder what

that's forming in our people, right?

00;45;06;20 - 00;45;10;09

So there are these kind of like,

I don't know the best way forward on this,

00;45;11;09 - 00;45;15;11

but I

do try as much as I possibly can to it

00;45;15;17 - 00;45;20;00

to just lean into the fact

that when we gather it is formative time

00;45;20;00 - 00;45;23;14

when we walk to the front

every week and receive the Lord's Supper

00;45;23;25 - 00;45;24;27

that is formation,

00;45;24;27 - 00;45;28;21

You know, when we worship, when we pray,

when we hear instruction from the Bible.

00;45;28;21 - 00;45;32;14

So formations at the front of my mind,

because I know

00;45;32;14 - 00;45;36;16

folks are being formed 24 seven

basically when they're not at church.

00;45;37;10 - 00;45;39;01

Yeah, that's right.

00;45;39;01 - 00;45;43;22

Our my pastor talks about

and he would probably qualify this

00;45;44;14 - 00;45;47;18

even even as I'm saying it

but that he, you know, has

00;45;48;05 - 00;45;51;06

he has us for,

you know, 90 minutes a week or something.

00;45;51;06 - 00;45;54;14

And then all these other media have us

for however many hours

00;45;55;03 - 00;45;55;29

they have us for a week.

00;45;55;29 - 00;45;59;12

And so particularly this is one example

00;46;00;02 - 00;46;03;27

he would have is, you know,

the Bible talks a lot about justice.

00;46;04;15 - 00;46;07;02

And and so you can speak,

00;46;07;02 - 00;46;10;17

you can say justice from the pulpit

or you can be teaching it in the class.

00;46;11;06 - 00;46;14;06

And people are going to read

into that word a lot of different things

00;46;14;06 - 00;46;17;06

based on whatever news they consume

and whatever they're reading.

00;46;17;17 - 00;46;20;10

And they're going to they're going

to assume you're talking about that

00;46;21;14 - 00;46;22;27

when you're saying justice.

00;46;22;27 - 00;46;25;05

And you might even

just be trying to be biblical about it.

00;46;25;05 - 00;46;28;11

You might be framing it

entirely in the biblical context.

00;46;28;11 - 00;46;31;21

So I think of those really tough issues

that particularly pastors have,

00;46;31;21 - 00;46;36;15

but anyone teaching in any setting

would have with a lot of these

00;46;36;20 - 00;46;39;28

these terms that are in our culture

and also derived from the Bible.

00;46;40;14 - 00;46;42;22

Wow, it's crazy out there.

00;46;42;22 - 00;46;44;27

Yeah, it's crazy out there. Yeah.

00;46;44;27 - 00;46;45;05

Okay.

00;46;45;05 - 00;46;48;09

I want to just wrap up

with a couple questions.

00;46;48;09 - 00;46;53;00

One of them is to just get your take

as someone who is in a more rural setting.

00;46;53;00 - 00;46;56;25

And so you're you're dealing with people

00;46;56;25 - 00;46;59;27

day to day

who are obviously in that setting as well.

00;47;00;10 - 00;47;02;28

And there's some perennial sort

of Christian education topics.

00;47;02;28 - 00;47;06;13

I just want to get your take on

what they're like from your

00;47;07;03 - 00;47;10;23

and I don't want to like exoticized

your your location versus mine,

00;47;10;23 - 00;47;12;19

but it's just

I don't live in a rural setting.

00;47;12;19 - 00;47;15;29

So when I think about the first

one is going to be faith and work

00;47;15;29 - 00;47;18;02

when I think about faith and work,

I think of it

00;47;18;02 - 00;47;21;05

so intensely in this university context

that I live in, right.

00;47;21;05 - 00;47;22;16

And the and particularly a student

00;47;22;16 - 00;47;25;28

oriented faith and work conversation

where we're trying to prepare students

00;47;26;12 - 00;47;29;26

to enter into careers,

usually ones that require college degrees,

00;47;30;10 - 00;47;36;07

that we want them to be thinking

about how their commitments to Christ

00;47;36;07 - 00;47;40;29

and and their grounding in the Bible

will shape them in those in those context,

00;47;41;06 - 00;47;44;00

I want to recognize that

that's not the context of faith and work

00;47;44;00 - 00;47;46;23

that everywhere is.

And probably is in in your setting.

00;47;46;23 - 00;47;49;14

So when you think about faith

and work in your context,

00;47;49;14 - 00;47;52;22

what are you thinking about and what are

you trying to get across to the people?

00;47;53;02 - 00;47;53;16

Yeah,

00;47;55;24 - 00;47;58;13

I mean, it is some

00;47;58;13 - 00;48;00;10

it's partially by nature of my background.

00;48;00;10 - 00;48;03;21

I mean, it is partially

some of the same things on, on one level.

00;48;03;21 - 00;48;06;24

I mean and we do have we have

we have teachers, we have architects,

00;48;07;12 - 00;48;10;09

we have you know,

we have some of the same engineers.

00;48;10;09 - 00;48;11;19

We have these kind of people

in our church.

00;48;11;19 - 00;48;15;07

But at the same time,

our community also has a lot of blue

00;48;15;07 - 00;48;18;21

collar service work, you know,

just like probably every community does.

00;48;18;21 - 00;48;20;13

They just might not be in a certain

church.

00;48;20;13 - 00;48;21;28

Right.

00;48;21;28 - 00;48;27;06

But so when I think about faith and work,

I do I try to help people think.

00;48;27;06 - 00;48;30;19

I mean, I'm pretty inspired by Shafer's

holistic take on it, too.

00;48;30;19 - 00;48;33;13

So I think I try to get people

to think about that.

00;48;33;13 - 00;48;35;01

There's no sacred secular divide

00;48;35;01 - 00;48;39;05

but that all of life counts

and all of our jobs count.

00;48;39;05 - 00;48;44;07

And we're not just, you know, whittling

away our time for no reason but like this,

00;48;44;07 - 00;48;47;14

a chance to worship the Lord and actually

invest in the kingdom, you know, So

00;48;47;27 - 00;48;51;08

so that doesn't it doesn't matter

what kind of job you have for that.

00;48;52;10 - 00;48;52;18

But the

00;48;52;18 - 00;48;55;22

reality is, and I'm

I'm thinking back to a Christian today.

00;48;55;25 - 00;48;57;17

I think it was a cover story.

It might have been more

00;48;57;17 - 00;49;00;06

than five years ago

now called God of the Second Shift.

00;49;00;06 - 00;49;03;27

They had this story on

kind of like the way in which most faith

00;49;03;27 - 00;49;07;16

and work conversations

assume a white collar listener.

00;49;08;06 - 00;49;11;22

And I do think that is a problem.

00;49;11;22 - 00;49;14;25

And and there are lots of people

that just even simply

00;49;14;25 - 00;49;19;01

getting to church on a regular basis

because of their shift work is hard,

00;49;19;11 - 00;49;22;18

let alone coming to like a four week

class on faith and work, you know.

00;49;22;18 - 00;49;25;18

So what does it look like to actually

00;49;27;02 - 00;49;28;26

help these folks think about it?

00;49;28;26 - 00;49;31;13

It looks like something different, right?

00;49;31;13 - 00;49;35;05

And innovative, which I'm still thinking

about what that looks like here.

00;49;35;27 - 00;49;39;24

And it also sometimes just looks like

validating that that work matters

00;49;40;00 - 00;49;42;15

because you don't read about it

in most of the books.

00;49;42;15 - 00;49;42;24

You know,

00;49;42;24 - 00;49;44;27

coming out from IVP

or something on vocation

00;49;44;27 - 00;49;48;01

like these jobs don't show up the same

unless it's like you might be a farmer,

00;49;48;01 - 00;49;51;22

but you're raising like grass fed beef

and you having this like restaurant

00;49;51;22 - 00;49;52;17

local connection.

00;49;52;17 - 00;49;54;25

But you're not just like a dairy farmer

00;49;54;25 - 00;49;57;02

and you're using hormones

sometimes because you have to.

00;49;57;02 - 00;49;59;05

And in rural western pay,

you know what I mean?

00;49;59;05 - 00;50;00;18

It's a different conversation.

00;50;01;25 - 00;50;03;00

Very interesting.

00;50;03;00 - 00;50;07;26

The other one I want to ask you about sort

of another perennial issue in Christian

00;50;07;26 - 00;50;13;18

education is just the sort of apologetics

or knowledge type of education.

00;50;13;18 - 00;50;17;23

So that's often a, you know, way

that Christian education is delivered

00;50;17;23 - 00;50;20;25

is there's certain defenses of the faith

or there's certain,

00;50;21;08 - 00;50;25;03

you know, issues

that are very hot in the culture.

00;50;25;15 - 00;50;30;20

That and again, I'm assuming

this is why I want to ask you about it.

00;50;30;25 - 00;50;32;20

I always come at it

from a university context.

00;50;32;20 - 00;50;35;12

So there are these issues that students

are learning in the classroom.

00;50;35;12 - 00;50;35;24

Yeah.

00;50;35;24 - 00;50;37;06

And you're wanting to make sure

that they have

00;50;37;06 - 00;50;39;03

a sort of Christian perspective on that.

00;50;39;03 - 00;50;43;12

Or how do you think about those types

of apologetics

00;50;43;12 - 00;50;46;12

or or ideas oriented education

00;50;47;08 - 00;50;49;27

for a non university context?

00;50;51;07 - 00;50;51;28

Well, I

00;50;51;28 - 00;50;55;21

don't think a lot about apologetics,

and I think it's fine.

00;50;55;22 - 00;50;57;09

The nature of the way there's

00;50;57;09 - 00;51;01;08

been maybe a subtle shift from apologetics

being at the front.

00;51;01;17 - 00;51;03;27

You know, more front of of thinking.

00;51;03;27 - 00;51;06;02

And I think I've inherited that

a little bit.

00;51;06;02 - 00;51;09;01

But at the same time,

I do think a lot about,

00;51;10;06 - 00;51;12;27

again, formation and art of formation

00;51;12;27 - 00;51;15;08

is being able to think

well about your time, right.

00;51;15;08 - 00;51;17;29

And the problems of your moment.

00;51;17;29 - 00;51;23;11

And the thing is because everyone in big

or small places has phones and has access

00;51;23;11 - 00;51;26;20

to the same idea as though they might have

trickled through like mass media.

00;51;28;01 - 00;51;29;27

Many of the same ideas,

00;51;29;27 - 00;51;33;11

though maybe a little less

distilled, are out there in our churches.

00;51;33;20 - 00;51;33;29

Right.

00;51;33;29 - 00;51;37;11

And so it does actually matter

00;51;37;11 - 00;51;40;24

that pastors are equipped and willing

00;51;41;11 - 00;51;46;02

to tackle some of the ideas

that are out there because everyone

00;51;47;00 - 00;51;50;00

with the way tech is anymore,

everyone is encountering them.

00;51;50;11 - 00;51;53;05

And trickling down

to every sphere of life.

00;51;53;05 - 00;51;56;28

So so that does matter

and that's why it does matter.

00;51;57;10 - 00;52;00;04

I mean, I think the calling

00;52;00;04 - 00;52;03;27

of teachers and pastors in large

and small places

00;52;03;27 - 00;52;07;21

is just so important right now

because there are so many ideas

00;52;07;21 - 00;52;10;04

vying for our

attention and for our hearts.

00;52;12;10 - 00;52;12;20

Okay.

00;52;12;20 - 00;52;14;23

So that takes us to the last question

here.

00;52;14;23 - 00;52;18;14

And that's I just wanted

an open ended question of if you could

00;52;18;27 - 00;52;21;25

sort of dictate where Christian education,

00;52;21;25 - 00;52;24;25

broadly construed

00;52;24;28 - 00;52;28;24

moves in the near future, in the next

5 to 10 years, what are the

00;52;29;09 - 00;52;32;08

the two or three things you'd really want

to make sure are emphasized

00;52;32;08 - 00;52;35;08

or are are top of the mind

00;52;35;12 - 00;52;39;00

for the people that pastors, teachers,

professors,

00;52;39;09 - 00;52;42;09

those types?

00;52;42;25 - 00;52;44;23

Yeah,

00;52;44;23 - 00;52;47;23

I think the first thing I would say,

00;52;48;23 - 00;52;51;23

you know as I worked on my book,

00;52;52;00 - 00;52;54;05

I kind of came into contact

for the first time

00;52;54;05 - 00;52;57;15

with the work of Joshua Little

and this idea of a technological society

00;52;57;15 - 00;53;00;16

and technique,

and it's captured my mind since then.

00;53;00;16 - 00;53;03;01

And then Al Noble's recent

book, You're Not Your Own,

00;53;04;05 - 00;53;07;05

you know, really kind of riffs on that

and does a great job.

00;53;07;13 - 00;53;10;08

And so I, I am pretty convinced

00;53;10;08 - 00;53;14;07

that we need to guard against efficiency

00;53;14;08 - 00;53;19;24

being like the number one motivator

for everything, including education.

00;53;20;09 - 00;53;24;17

And we need to intentionally because

it will not happen unless for intentional

00;53;26;09 - 00;53;30;09

push into more

and more human forms of education,

00;53;30;09 - 00;53;33;18

the more it takes account of all parts

00;53;33;18 - 00;53;37;17

of our humanity, the better, and the more

it meets us in a relational space.

00;53;37;18 - 00;53;39;01

That's one of the things,

as I was looking over

00;53;39;01 - 00;53;42;05

some of the region chapter and stuff in

preparation for the day, I was just struck

00;53;42;05 - 00;53;45;18

once again

by Houston's emphasis on relationship.

00;53;45;18 - 00;53;48;09

And it was like through 40

or 50 years of his career.

00;53;48;09 - 00;53;50;25

I mean, it's just amazing

00;53;50;25 - 00;53;53;05

even when he would get pushback

for being too relational,

00;53;53;05 - 00;53;56;26

not enough time in the administration,

like the he knew this was so important

00;53;58;17 - 00;53;59;09

and so I think

00;53;59;09 - 00;54;02;25

education that has to be relational

has to be a life, one life.

00;54;03;08 - 00;54;05;11

I mean, there's

a time and place for podcast.

00;54;05;11 - 00;54;09;20

There's a time and place for

for instruction from a great teacher.

00;54;09;20 - 00;54;14;00

But our tendency to

just want the celebrity to give us a nice,

00;54;14;20 - 00;54;18;06

you know, edited

talk is dangerous to our souls.

00;54;18;06 - 00;54;22;07

And because there's something lost,

I mean, when you're thinking about La Brea

00;54;22;07 - 00;54;25;15

and you're thinking about like you worked

for hours together, you know,

00;54;25;16 - 00;54;28;16

in the garden,

you learn something at that time,

00;54;28;17 - 00;54;30;28

and then you went in with dirty hands

and learned theology.

00;54;30;28 - 00;54;32;05

There's something good about that.

00;54;32;05 - 00;54;33;27

And then you eat a meal together.

00;54;33;27 - 00;54;36;17

So it's going to look different

in all kinds of place,

00;54;36;17 - 00;54;37;17

but it has to be contextual.

00;54;37;17 - 00;54;40;17

It has to relational

has to be for this place in this moment,

00;54;40;17 - 00;54;43;17

for these people that God loves uniquely,

you know.

00;54;43;23 - 00;54;44;10

So that's

00;54;44;10 - 00;54;47;10

that's probably like my biggest thing,

and that's going to look like all kinds

00;54;47;10 - 00;54;48;04

of different things.

00;54;50;09 - 00;54;53;09

And then part of that second part of that

00;54;53;19 - 00;54;57;15

is that it cares about people

in a lot of different places,

00;54;58;03 - 00;55;01;21

you know, And it's not just for the folks

who are going to be

00;55;01;21 - 00;55;03;17

at the frontline for everything,

00;55;03;17 - 00;55;07;24

you know, the best educated, the people

with the best connections, but that that

00;55;07;24 - 00;55;12;13

it tries as best they can, the movement

in general, the studies, their movement.

00;55;12;13 - 00;55;17;26

But just like thoughtful

Christians try to make room at the table

00;55;18;16 - 00;55;21;13

for people of different racial

backgrounds, different socioeconomic

00;55;21;13 - 00;55;25;14

backgrounds, geographic backgrounds,

because it really does matter.

00;55;25;14 - 00;55;29;02

I mean, what does it look like for

like the consortium to catch a vision, say

00;55;29;11 - 00;55;32;21

we're going to intentionally

look at some underserved places

00;55;33;06 - 00;55;35;01

and harness our resources to that?

00;55;35;01 - 00;55;37;07

I think that kind of stuff

that sounds human to me.

00;55;37;07 - 00;55;39;23

That sounds very kingdom to me.

00;55;39;23 - 00;55;40;23

Agreed. Agreed.

00;55;40;23 - 00;55;45;18

That sounds like a vision of the kingdom

from Revelation seven, nine

00;55;45;18 - 00;55;50;00

or many other places in the New Testament

of a very diverse,

00;55;50;07 - 00;55;53;19

multicultural, multi

socioeconomic class in the kingdom.

00;55;53;19 - 00;55;55;19

So, Tali, thanks for your time.

00;55;55;19 - 00;55;58;24

Thanks for the work you've done

and your ministry going forward

00;55;58;24 - 00;56;01;08

is a pleasure talking to you. Yeah, it's

great to be here.

00;56;01;08 - 00;56;02;08

Good luck to all you guys.

00;56;02;08 - 00;56;04;09

God bless

and all you do and appreciate Upper House.

00;56;06;03 - 00;56;07;17

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00;56;07;17 - 00;56;10;12

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00;56;26;23 - 00;56;30;24

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00;56;30;24 - 00;56;34;24

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