Shirley Roels, the executive director of the International Network for Christian Higher Education (INCHE), joins John Terrill for a discussion on the international landscape of Christian higher education. 

Learn about Shirley Roels & INCHE

With Faith in Mind is supported by the Steven & Laurel Brown Foundation, produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin, and hosted by Dan Hummel & John Terrill. Jesse Koopman is the executive producer and editor.

Please reach out to us with comments or questions at podcast@slbrownfoundation.org. We’d love to hear from you.

Transcript

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Welcome to the With Faith in Mind podcast

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and our current series entitled

Christian Education at the Crossroads.

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I'm one of the hosts, John Terrell, and I

am excited about today's conversation

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where we explore the character

of Christian higher education globally.

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In this episode, we welcome Dr.

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Shirley Roels to the show.

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Shirley, it is so nice to see you.

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Thank you for joining us today.

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And good to be here.

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Well, it is good to have you here.

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Let me tell our listeners

a little bit about Shirley.

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Dr. Rules is the executive director

of the International Network

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for Christian Higher Education,

otherwise known as Inch.

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Previously, she was the director of

the Network for Vocation in Undergraduate

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Education, hosted by the Council

of Independent Colleges USA.

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Shirley is also a professor emeritus

at Calvin University

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in the field of managing it,

where she served as department

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chair, Academic Dean Grant,

director and director of the Van

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Loon and Center for Executive Management

in Christian Schools.

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Her authored or edited publications

include Business Through the Eyes of Faith

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on Moral Business, Organizational Man,

Organizational Women Calling Leadership

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and Culture and Reformed Mission

in an Age of World Christianity.

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Shirley, Your bio is long.

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I could go on and on, but

you've been played such a prominent role

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in Christian education

for for so many years. And

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and you've committed your life to this.

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And so I'd like to start off

our conversation today

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asking you about a teacher or mentor

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who played an important role in your life

that helped

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you decide to go into this field.

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I wonder if you could just share a story

or a person from your background

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that that really made a difference for you

with respect to your decision

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to really commit your life

to Christian higher education?

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I would say one person who immediately

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comes to my mind,

he was my undergraduate advisor.

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His name was Delma Camp.

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He was a professor of communications.

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I was a first semester, an experienced

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freshman

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in his course, scared to death.

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And it was a course in public speaking.

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He encouraged me.

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I looked at the sophomores

and juniors around me

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and he said, You can do this

just like they are,

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even though they're a year

or two older than you are.

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And I was very encouraged

and I worked through him.

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I think he helped me

to frame my own education more broadly

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as a Christian so that I was connecting

all of the pieces.

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So I saw all of my education

as faith infused.

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And he was an important person in terms of

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practical guidance

and courses that I was taking.

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I also had him as a professor

in several courses.

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So I have very fond memories

of his influence

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and specific

people make a difference for each of us.

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Oh, absolutely.

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That's a great story. And I know I don't

know about your undergraduate work.

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Was it at Calvin University?

It was in Calvin.

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I was your undergraduate

in Communications,

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which was a broad

liberal arts major at the time.

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And then I had a minor in social sciences

at the time.

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I can imagine that it's wonderful

to have that kind of example,

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particularly in public

speaking situations, to

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reflect back on his encouragement

and see his face

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in some of those challenging situations

that I'm sure you've had to be in, where

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you're speaking in front of large groups

or having to communicate in delicate ways.

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Oh, yes, I learned a lot.

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I learned about semantics.

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I learned about group communications.

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I learned about persuasion.

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Many things from him.

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Yeah, that's a great story.

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Thank you for sharing that.

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Well, one of the reasons we thought

you would be such a fantastic guest

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is that you can help us contextualize Christian education outside of North America.

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In some ways,

you know, we think you can really help us

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bust some myths for many of us,

and I'll speak for myself.

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A natural inclination

is to think that organizational life

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around the world mirrors

what we experience here.

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I think we can think

monolithically about it.

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We can tend to overgeneralize.

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But my guess is that that's not the case

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with Christian colleges

located in different parts of the world.

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And so, you know,

I want to ask and lead with this question.

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Do Christian colleges around the world

look like North American,

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Christian colleges and universities,

or are they different?

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And the answer, of course,

is it all depends.

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Okay.

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You know what?

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What I would observe

is that there are some very established

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universities and colleges around the world

that have been in existence.

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And they're Christian.

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They've been here for more than 100 years.

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And in those kinds of cases,

they frequently

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look more like North

American colleges and universities.

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But with the global growth of Christianity

in the south and east,

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there has been an absolute explosion

of new Christian colleges

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and universities, many of which

are anywhere from 1 to 25 years old.

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They're much younger as organizations,

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huge amounts of energy,

huge amounts of vision,

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and they are still finding themselves

in terms of organizational processes,

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trying to recruit faculty

and trying to do a lot of things.

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So it really is

highly varied around the world.

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I'll give you maybe one working example.

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The country of Uganda

realized about 30 years ago

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that they did not, as a small country,

have the resources

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to build much of a public university

system.

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Mm hmm.

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So they shaped their system

to encourage private institutions.

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And I believe 24 or 25

Christian universities were born

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within the next 15 years.

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Wow. And it is a huge

force in a country like that.

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What are the numbers?

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I'm just thinking about

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we're going to talk a little bit

about your organization, but

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just for for this

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for understanding kind of scale and scope

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and maybe there isn't a total number,

but can you can you talk about numbers?

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Can you talk about numbers regionally?

How many Christian colleges

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and universities

are there outside of North America?

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It is really a total number

that I don't know,

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but I would say

it is probably in the thousands.

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Okay.

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And what we find is that

when you go into a context,

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for example, like India,

where I have some connection.

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The deeper we dig,

the more Christian colleges we find.

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And we have discovered

there is a there's a significant network

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of them are probably

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60 or 70 of them, at least in the country.

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And then you go to another country

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and they're still building their systems,

for example, in Nigeria.

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I just found a new Pentecostal

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based university, which seems to have

excellent academic quality.

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Well, they just started in 2015.

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So, you know, these institutions

keep growing and emerging and beginning.

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So it's hard to get a total number.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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And by comparison standards, about 150

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Christian colleges and universities,

they're probably more than that.

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But I think some of the associations

are at about 150 200 in the US.

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Is that about right?

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It depends on how you define what it means

to be a Christian college or university.

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If you if you say that a Christian college

or university in the United States,

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for example, was historically founded

and remains connected

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to some underlying religious order

or Christian denomination

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or not,

you know, multi denominational group,

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then I would say in the United States

there are several hundred,

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if you want to

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say that there is a tighter configuration

of saying

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what constitutes being Christian college,

is that all your faculty are Christian,

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then you're between 100 and 150, probably.

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Okay.

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And it gets complicated when you start

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drawing in Catholic colleges

and universities.

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Oh, yeah. Yeah.

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It really changes the dynamic.

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And and people do not realize

and even within the United States

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with a strong force, Catholic colleges

and universities have become in part

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because of discrimination against Catholic

schools that began in the mid 1800s.

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And this sense, we can't be part

of the public sector as much.

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So we will build our own

educational systems.

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Right.

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Well, I'm going to ask you

to generalize here just as we get started,

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and then I'm going to try

not to do that again.

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But what would you say

is the biggest difference

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with respect to Christian higher education

outside

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of North America versus in North America?

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If you had to sort of list

the biggest difference, what would it be?

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I would I would cite a couple things.

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First of all,

I would say that the the balance

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between general education

based on the liberal arts and

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education

that is more applied and in applied

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fields of study is often different

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because in a lot of emerging

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economies, in less developed

majority world countries,

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there's there's such a press for people

who have knowledge

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and skills that is useful

in terms of building the community,

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building the economy, building

business, building governments.

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And so, you know,

I would say a lot of the universities,

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you go into them with the expectation

that you are going to major in agriculture

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or education or business or engineering

or information

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technology

or social work or something like that.

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You don't start

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as readily with a couple of years

of General education and coursework study,

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and that is a

a little bit of a flip from the U.S.

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model where most people say, well,

the first year or two is general study

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and then you gradually concentrate

more in applied field.

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So that's one big difference.

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The other big difference, I would say,

is that people in the United States

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do not realize how

blessed we are in terms of a

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support

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network for private higher education

in the United States.

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We have a governmentally funded,

federally funded financial aid system

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that supports students

in both public and private universities.

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Most countries around the world

do not have an equivalent like that.

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There are exceptions.

Canada is pretty generous.

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A lot of countries

don't have a system like that.

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Students are on their own.

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It's parents and students working together

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to finance the whole works.

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Even even in public universities,

not just private.

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Even public.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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And. And so and and around the world,

there isn't

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the kind of tax structure we had

in the United States that encourages

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donors to give funds to private and public

universities.

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There's.

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Yes. Many countries don't have

so the whole financing mechanism

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that's quite different.

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Yeah.

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Really interesting. Yes.

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I imagine there are again,

I just asked you to generalize.

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I'm going to ask you to do it again.

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But but in a different kind of way, if

you think about the regions of the world.

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Are there similarities?

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Is that that bear on particular regions?

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I know your work is on six continents.

I think.

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So you you have a chance to kind of work

regionally.

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What what similarities or differences

do you see

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across regions of the world?

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I think probably

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one of the similarities occurs

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just because of the age of institutions.

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So if you look at the context

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of Europe and North America, U.S.

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and Canada,

the private Christian higher education

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has been around for quite some time,

although Canada's

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situation is quite different

than the U.S..

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The Canadian government didn't believe

that private Christian higher education

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could actually work until being convinced

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by example in the last 40 years.

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But generally, you do find a fair number

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of similarities with particularly Western

Europe and the U.S.

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and and with Australia too, in terms of

what is there.

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Although the Christian college movement

in Australia,

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it has resulted in a number

of smaller schools, but

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it's considerably different

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from what you find in

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Africa, for example,

where you have many younger institutions.

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And I would say what's interesting,

of course, is that

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every continent has differences.

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So in Latin America, the primary providers

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of Christian higher education are Catholic

universities.

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Well, there's logic, though,

given the overlay of Spanish

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and and Portuguese colonialism,

that it would be Catholic.

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And so you don't find near

as many Protestant institutions.

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They're quite rare in Latin America.

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But the Catholic institutions,

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some of them are quite serious about

what does faith have to do with learning.

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So it's and then, of course,

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Asia is its own context,

and it varies from country to country.

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Korea has some many strong

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Christian universities in Korea

because of the high rates

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of conversion to Christianity

over the course of a century

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in China because of government repression.

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It's very difficult

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to be in that context.

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And and it really is not possible

in mainland China

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to have a private Christian university.

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Indonesia, on the other hand, it's

probably more than

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85% Muslim, but they've created space

for Christian universities.

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And there are a couple of very lively

and very effective ones in Indonesia.

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So my very.

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You know, it's really interesting.

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There are a couple of real hotspots,

countries

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around the world

where they just seem to high, hyper

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proliferate of

of new Christian colleges and universities

00;15;12;13 - 00;15;15;13

and they just seem to be really generating

lots of activity.

00;15;16;06 - 00;15;19;06

I would say that

00;15;19;08 - 00;15;22;08

in Africa there's a lot going on

00;15;22;20 - 00;15;28;19

because of the high conversion

rates to Christianity.

00;15;29;05 - 00;15;32;27

You go to a country like Kenya

and most people

00;15;32;27 - 00;15;36;26

will say roughly 80% of the population

in Kenya is now Christian,

00;15;38;16 - 00;15;40;02

which is huge.

00;15;40;02 - 00;15;42;24

And these are people, families

00;15;42;24 - 00;15;45;24

looking for education for their children.

00;15;46;02 - 00;15;50;09

And there are a huge

I mean, there's just a huge number

00;15;50;09 - 00;15;53;09

of Christian college and university

Z's grown up in Kenya.

00;15;54;24 - 00;15;57;07

The thing they're trying to find their way

through

00;15;57;07 - 00;16;00;13

is is to say, well, we don't just compete.

00;16;00;13 - 00;16;03;12

We ought to cooperate

and help each other, too.

00;16;04;00 - 00;16;08;09

And so I recall a meeting

we had in Nairobi before the pandemic.

00;16;08;15 - 00;16;12;27

We gathered a bunch of them who are that

are within an hour of Nairobi for lunch.

00;16;12;27 - 00;16;15;22

And they all looked at each other

and they said,

00;16;15;22 - 00;16;18;23

Why are we talking more to each other

and helping each other?

00;16;19;12 - 00;16;22;05

And then, of course, the pandemic began.

00;16;22;05 - 00;16;23;28

So we're still left with that question.

00;16;24;27 - 00;16;25;13

But that's

00;16;25;13 - 00;16;29;28

I'd say that's a hotspot, as is Uganda,

without question.

00;16;29;28 - 00;16;32;28

The other place I would say is Nigeria.

00;16;33;03 - 00;16;33;21

Okay.

00;16;33;21 - 00;16;36;20

There are several very, very strong, solid

00;16;37;16 - 00;16;40;16

Christian universities in Nigeria

that are growing up.

00;16;40;16 - 00;16;42;08

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;16;42;08 - 00;16;44;12

Well,

that that's really interesting to hear.

00;16;44;12 - 00;16;46;21

And I imagine

00;16;46;21 - 00;16;49;22

I can just hear your passion

as you share some of those stories.

00;16;49;22 - 00;16;52;28

And I would love to hear a little bit

about your story,

00;16;52;28 - 00;16;57;11

which I know is really rich,

particularly your vocational story.

00;16;57;11 - 00;16;59;20

What what brought you to Edge?

00;16;59;20 - 00;17;01;29

I know there's a story there, surely.

00;17;01;29 - 00;17;07;01

I left because someone once asked me

how I got this job, and I said, That's

00;17;07;01 - 00;17;10;27

because God has a good sense of humor

about my colleague.

00;17;12;10 - 00;17;16;12

It's just, you know,

I mean, I decided by the time I was 25,

00;17;16;12 - 00;17;19;12

I have completed the application

to seminary and thought,

00;17;19;27 - 00;17;24;22

yeah, it's it's not the kind

I believe in the importance of the church,

00;17;24;22 - 00;17;29;20

but I don't belong inside

the context of the church per say,

00;17;30;12 - 00;17;32;22

leading a congregation. What is it?

00;17;32;22 - 00;17;33;26

And it struck me.

00;17;33;26 - 00;17;36;24

It was my great love of education

00;17;36;24 - 00;17;40;01

and my love of management

and my love of theology.

00;17;40;01 - 00;17;43;11

That all led me to say the future, really,

where I belong is Christian.

00;17;43;21 - 00;17;47;26

Higher education in some way,

but how it would take shape, Who knew?

00;17;48;09 - 00;17;53;04

And I loved my years

of teaching, but I have this.

00;17;54;04 - 00;17;55;24

Some people think it's an ad

00;17;55;24 - 00;18;00;03

that toward administrating

and organizing programs and initiatives.

00;18;00;14 - 00;18;01;25

And I think that's really.

00;18;01;25 - 00;18;05;01

The not the

not the non administrator amongst us

00;18;05;01 - 00;18;08;06

don't think it's a strange bent

they're grateful for the bent but.

00;18;08;18 - 00;18;12;29

And so that's really what I've done

without and without an obvious path.

00;18;13;08 - 00;18;16;12

I think I just

I looked at what was in front of me

00;18;16;12 - 00;18;21;02

and the question was what needs doing that

you know about

00;18;22;09 - 00;18;23;10

your position to do?

00;18;23;10 - 00;18;25;27

So that's the sense of calling.

00;18;25;27 - 00;18;30;12

So it wasn't anything dramatic,

but that's what occurred.

00;18;31;03 - 00;18;31;14

Yeah.

00;18;31;14 - 00;18;33;25

And so you've been at in how many years?

00;18;33;25 - 00;18;36;25

Well, I've been involved in this network

00;18;37;00 - 00;18;41;06

probably since the late 1980s

when I first learned about it

00;18;41;06 - 00;18;45;19

and was always curious about global

Christian higher education.

00;18;45;29 - 00;18;49;05

But it wasn't something

I could do a lot with early on.

00;18;49;25 - 00;18;52;06

But in the nineties

my world got a lot bigger.

00;18;52;06 - 00;18;55;07

I was invited to lecture in both mainland

00;18;55;07 - 00;18;59;07

China and in Russia,

so I'd been in Russia four times.

00;18;59;07 - 00;19;03;11

I've been in mainland China

three times lecturing and participating

00;19;03;11 - 00;19;06;22

in seminars and that really broadened

my thinking about a lot of things.

00;19;08;08 - 00;19;11;11

And so

I always had a hand in this network.

00;19;11;11 - 00;19;12;15

I was always a member.

00;19;12;15 - 00;19;15;16

I wasn't in a specific leadership

role, but

00;19;15;16 - 00;19;18;16

I always read the newsletter

and I always paid attention.

00;19;18;23 - 00;19;23;09

And when the Priory, one of the prior

00;19;23;10 - 00;19;26;25

directors left in his office, was right

across the hall from mine.

00;19;27;14 - 00;19;29;20

And I knew that needed a new director.

00;19;29;20 - 00;19;31;24

And I thought, well, maybe, maybe not.

00;19;31;24 - 00;19;35;04

And then I got an email

from a couple of Christians in Slovakia

00;19;35;04 - 00;19;39;19

who they said, Can you do something

to help us in Christian higher education?

00;19;39;19 - 00;19;41;17

I thought, okay, that's it.

00;19;41;17 - 00;19;43;11

I have to I have to think about this.

00;19;43;11 - 00;19;46;00

And then it happened. From there

00;19;46;00 - 00;19;48;23

it was a little bit like Paul's

call to Macedonia or something.

00;19;48;23 - 00;19;51;01

You couldn't couldn't quite resist that.

00;19;53;24 - 00;19;55;06

That's really well,

00;19;55;06 - 00;19;57;17

I know our listeners would love to hear

about

00;19;57;17 - 00;20;01;10

Inge Mission, vision goals.

00;20;02;01 - 00;20;03;27

It play such a crucial role.

00;20;03;27 - 00;20;08;04

Could you describe what it is

that it does around the world?

00;20;08;20 - 00;20;11;20

Yeah, I started by saying this

00;20;11;20 - 00;20;14;20

Ich was not a North American creation.

00;20;15;15 - 00;20;19;16

This network was born in South Africa

in:

00;20;20;18 - 00;20;22;22

by some Christian

00;20;22;22 - 00;20;26;24

philosophers and theologians

who said we should talk to people on

00;20;26;24 - 00;20;31;02

other continents and learn from each other

and organize a conference.

00;20;31;17 - 00;20;34;17

And things went from there

with periodic conferences.

00;20;34;27 - 00;20;37;27

But it's not a North American invention,

00;20;38;24 - 00;20;41;07

and we are active on six continents.

00;20;41;07 - 00;20;44;26

We have primarily college and university

members.

00;20;45;14 - 00;20;48;16

We've got between 40 and 50 universities

00;20;48;16 - 00;20;51;16

and colleges

that are active members of our network.

00;20;52;23 - 00;20;55;07

Our primary work is, we say

00;20;55;07 - 00;20;58;11

it is to inform, connect and equip.

00;20;59;00 - 00;21;02;16

And so we try to inform people

around the world of what

00;21;02;16 - 00;21;04;15

their counterparts are doing.

00;21;04;15 - 00;21;06;27

So, you know,

if you're in a medical school

00;21;06;27 - 00;21;10;11

in one country, in a university

that's Christian, we try to find you

00;21;10;12 - 00;21;11;29

and connect you to a medical school

00;21;11;29 - 00;21;15;21

in another country

that's doing something similar, similar.

00;21;15;25 - 00;21;19;22

You know, if people are in the field

of education, we try to connect them.

00;21;19;22 - 00;21;21;18

So they learn from each other.

00;21;21;18 - 00;21;25;25

So, you know, informing and connecting

people and then equipping people.

00;21;26;02 - 00;21;28;27

As we have grant funds available, we do

00;21;28;27 - 00;21;31;26

professional development projects

00;21;31;26 - 00;21;35;27

primarily for faculty members

to help them think about

00;21;36;15 - 00;21;41;20

how does Christian faith

and a framework of faith affect

00;21;42;11 - 00;21;45;11

how we teach and learn

what we teach and learn,

00;21;45;14 - 00;21;50;09

and how we tell Christian students

to go about engaging their cultures?

00;21;51;29 - 00;21;54;29

And so, for example, we just started a new

00;21;55;21 - 00;21;58;21

grant project in Africa called

00;21;59;00 - 00;22;02;02

Preparing Redemptive Change Agents,

00;22;02;07 - 00;22;05;06

and we will work with faculty on

00;22;05;06 - 00;22;09;11

how do we think about what it means to

educate our students to become redemptive,

00;22;09;11 - 00;22;13;18

changed agents in their culture

and curriculum and teaching wise?

00;22;13;18 - 00;22;16;06

What do we do to help that happen?

00;22;16;06 - 00;22;19;11

Yeah, surely

that leads me to my next question,

00;22;19;11 - 00;22;23;13

and I'd love to know more

about the reasons

00;22;23;13 - 00;22;27;09

students and families pursue Christian

education in different parts of the world.

00;22;27;09 - 00;22;32;07

You've talked about some of these

cultural challenges and engaging culture,

00;22;32;07 - 00;22;35;07

but I'm I'm curious to know

00;22;35;27 - 00;22;39;27

what what you've learned about the reasons

that families

00;22;40;08 - 00;22;43;16

and students in particular pursue

Christian education.

00;22;45;23 - 00;22;48;05

There are lots of reasons.

00;22;48;05 - 00;22;49;22

I think some families

00;22;51;08 - 00;22;53;28

think that they really want their sons

and daughters

00;22;53;28 - 00;22;58;11

to learn more about the Bible

and about theology,

00;22;58;11 - 00;23;02;17

and they think of Christian college

or university is the right the best place

00;23;02;17 - 00;23;07;19

to do that as an extension that can go

deeper than a local congregation can.

00;23;08;02 - 00;23;10;19

But I also think, you know,

00;23;10;19 - 00;23;14;09

some parents are

they want their sons and daughters

00;23;14;09 - 00;23;18;04

to be formed as people of good

Christian character and value.

00;23;18;21 - 00;23;22;06

And they feel like, you know,

the role models that you will have

00;23;22;06 - 00;23;26;04

on the campus of Christian colleges

and universities, of faculty

00;23;26;04 - 00;23;30;25

and student life administrators

and others, will be the kinds of people

00;23;30;25 - 00;23;33;25

that they want to be, the examples

for their sons and daughters.

00;23;35;26 - 00;23;39;05

I think in a lot of countries,

an additional factor

00;23;39;05 - 00;23;43;27

which plays differently than it does

in the US is that in many countries

00;23;43;27 - 00;23;47;08

the public university system

is not very good academic.

00;23;48;19 - 00;23;51;29

And so

the Christian church and its related to

00;23;51;29 - 00;23;55;25

educational institutions

is seen as the place that you get the best

00;23;56;24 - 00;24;00;17

quality of education

that's attractive to people.

00;24;01;15 - 00;24;04;04

In many cases.

00;24;04;04 - 00;24;06;25

So lots of combined reasons

00;24;06;25 - 00;24;10;28

why people do that

and often parents can't pay for it.

00;24;10;29 - 00;24;14;21

So sometimes a lot of times

it's the 1819 year old saying,

00;24;15;06 - 00;24;20;14

I want to do this and I will get a job

so that I can afford to pay for it.

00;24;20;15 - 00;24;22;13

Sometimes they're gone for a semester too,

00;24;22;13 - 00;24;25;22

because they're working to raise money

so they can come back the next semester.

00;24;25;23 - 00;24;28;23

That's not uncommon. Yeah.

00;24;29;00 - 00;24;34;14

So a lot of the Christian colleges,

colleges and universities,

00;24;34;15 - 00;24;38;13

as you've noted,

have a strong applied orientation.

00;24;40;02 - 00;24;40;12

There.

00;24;40;12 - 00;24;44;29

They're, you know, focused on the trades,

I imagine computer programing,

00;24;45;00 - 00;24;48;20

things like this that I don't know

what the fields are, but business,

00;24;48;28 - 00;24;51;28

I imagine, you know,

we could look through a list of majors and

00;24;52;12 - 00;24;55;15

you would probably see

business and engineering

00;24;55;15 - 00;24;59;04

and some of those kinds of things before

you would see the arts and humanities.

00;25;00;11 - 00;25;01;29

Okay,

00;25;01;29 - 00;25;04;02

This where do the students go?

00;25;04;02 - 00;25;07;04

You know, did did the Christian colleges

and universities

00;25;07;04 - 00;25;10;10

have substantive arts and humanities

programs?

00;25;10;10 - 00;25;13;10

Do they do they not do that?

00;25;14;04 - 00;25;17;09

You know, where where does students

typically go after they graduate,

00;25;17;09 - 00;25;21;13

the kinds of jobs they take

or the the the degrees they pursue?

00;25;21;14 - 00;25;25;11

Just curious to hear a little bit

about the trajectory of of what happens.

00;25;25;11 - 00;25;27;19

Again, I'm going to ask you to generalize

and maybe maybe there's

00;25;27;19 - 00;25;31;15

a particular part of the world

or our country you'd like to zero in on

00;25;31;26 - 00;25;33;10

to kind of paint a picture of this.

00;25;33;10 - 00;25;36;09

But I'd love to kind of

think about students

00;25;37;24 - 00;25;41;18

in a different parts of the world

with respect to how it's different

00;25;41;18 - 00;25;46;07

or similar to what students do

this this side of the world.

00;25;47;16 - 00;25;48;24

Well, I'll give you

00;25;48;24 - 00;25;52;13

an interesting example

about this question of the balance

00;25;52;18 - 00;25;56;27

of applied study

versus liberal arts in India.

00;25;57;12 - 00;26;00;13

What's really fascinating in India

right now

00;26;00;13 - 00;26;04;09

is that a lot of these Christian colleges

started in very applied fields.

00;26;05;23 - 00;26;08;09

And now when they've come

00;26;08;09 - 00;26;11;28

to realize

is that if you're in applied field,

00;26;12;02 - 00;26;16;26

you still have to be able to

write, will speak well I think well,

00;26;18;07 - 00;26;21;03

and you've got to be able to rest

00;26;21;03 - 00;26;24;03

well and appreciate beauty

00;26;24;26 - 00;26;28;23

that these things are all important

in terms of someone being able

00;26;28;23 - 00;26;32;11

to build a life

where they can contribute appropriately.

00;26;32;25 - 00;26;37;13

So in India

right now, there's a big drive to enhance

00;26;37;13 - 00;26;42;11

and increase general education studies

in addition to the applied studies.

00;26;42;22 - 00;26;44;15

So it's almost as if

00;26;45;23 - 00;26;48;15

they're

backing into a model where the U.S.

00;26;48;15 - 00;26;52;00

is trending a little bit

in the other direction right now.

00;26;52;13 - 00;26;55;23

So it's quite interesting

to think about how

00;26;55;23 - 00;26;58;23

these things shift around the world.

00;26;58;23 - 00;27;02;08

I think we're all going to settle out

in some balance of general education

00;27;02;08 - 00;27;05;08

with applied study because we need both.

00;27;05;27 - 00;27;08;12

But, you know, where do people go?

00;27;08;12 - 00;27;11;17

Well, a lot of people do

stay in their home countries,

00;27;12;00 - 00;27;13;23

then that's good and right.

00;27;13;23 - 00;27;17;14

Because what we don't want to do

in Christian higher education is create

00;27;17;14 - 00;27;22;14

brain drain in areas of the world

which really, really need educated people.

00;27;23;09 - 00;27;23;27

Right?

00;27;23;27 - 00;27;28;15

So maybe they go to work in churches

and in government

00;27;28;20 - 00;27;33;09

and in education

as teachers, in social services.

00;27;33;22 - 00;27;36;22

I would say in developing countries,

00;27;36;26 - 00;27;42;25

because you don't have necessarily

all the structured employment options

00;27;42;26 - 00;27;47;00

you would hope for,

a lot of people become entrepreneurial

00;27;48;00 - 00;27;50;02

and open their own businesses.

00;27;50;02 - 00;27;55;10

That is not uncommon after you graduate

because that's the action in front of you

00;27;55;10 - 00;27;59;04

and you figure out something worthwhile

to do in your culture.

00;28;00;21 - 00;28;03;19

You know, in time, a number of students

00;28;03;19 - 00;28;06;20

do go on to advanced study, and

00;28;08;13 - 00;28;11;17

gratefully there are more Ph.D.

00;28;11;17 - 00;28;15;27

and MBA kinds of programs of quality

that are in their home countries

00;28;15;27 - 00;28;16;17

and regions.

00;28;16;17 - 00;28;20;09

So you don't necessarily

have to leave your continent to do that.

00;28;21;19 - 00;28;25;07

Or you may, you know, you may go

from Kenya to South Africa or something

00;28;25;07 - 00;28;28;11

like that, but you're not leaving

the African continent as a result.

00;28;28;24 - 00;28;33;04

But there still is a fair amount

at the graduate and professional level.

00;28;33;04 - 00;28;36;24

There's still a fair amount of cross

global kind of work.

00;28;37;03 - 00;28;41;18

So what's interesting

is that where people go

00;28;41;18 - 00;28;44;18

depends on global conditions.

00;28;44;22 - 00;28;48;23

So when the United States tightened up

immigration regulations

00;28;48;23 - 00;28;53;29

and was a less welcoming place

for international students, Chinese

00;28;53;29 - 00;28;56;29

students said, Well, we don't have to go

there, we'll go to Australia.

00;28;57;00 - 00;28;59;29

And they did in very large numbers.

00;28;59;29 - 00;29;02;18

And so student generations

00;29;02;18 - 00;29;05;18

flow depending on what conditions are.

00;29;05;23 - 00;29;09;10

Some of it has been very affected

by the relative tightness

00;29;09;10 - 00;29;13;21

of COVID regulations

over the last three years, done various.

00;29;14;26 - 00;29;15;25

Yeah, that's really helpful.

00;29;15;25 - 00;29;17;00

What about the faculty?

00;29;17;00 - 00;29;19;14

Where do the faculty come from?

00;29;19;14 - 00;29;21;11

Are they developed kind of homegrown?

00;29;21;11 - 00;29;22;27

Do they come from

different parts of the world?

00;29;22;27 - 00;29;24;29

What trends do you see there?

00;29;24;29 - 00;29;29;00

That I'd say

that is one of the biggest challenges

00;29;29;00 - 00;29;32;25

in these younger Christian

universities around the world is finding

00;29;32;25 - 00;29;35;25

and securing

and retaining qualified faculty

00;29;36;28 - 00;29;40;05

what many of them will do

as they as they are

00;29;40;05 - 00;29;43;05

beginning in their early years,

they will find

00;29;43;08 - 00;29;45;19

you know, three or four really strong

anchor

00;29;45;19 - 00;29;49;18

people who are deeply committed

to Christian faith

00;29;50;00 - 00;29;53;08

and our strong senior wise leaders.

00;29;55;01 - 00;29;58;17

And then from there to

to find faculty in all these fields,

00;29;59;07 - 00;30;02;05

you find a lot of people crossovers

during the day.

00;30;02;05 - 00;30;05;27

They teach in public universities

and then they teach a night course or two.

00;30;05;27 - 00;30;07;10

In the Christian University,

00;30;08;20 - 00;30;11;01

you'll find people who span more than one

00;30;11;01 - 00;30;14;00

Christian university

and teach in a couple different ones.

00;30;14;26 - 00;30;16;29

And and, you know,

00;30;16;29 - 00;30;19;29

some of these universities

also send people off

00;30;20;13 - 00;30;23;01

to advanced study with the intention

00;30;23;01 - 00;30;26;08

that they will come back

and serve in their universities.

00;30;26;27 - 00;30;29;26

But it it's a major challenge.

00;30;29;26 - 00;30;33;00

I think one of the ways

one of the things that helped

00;30;33;15 - 00;30;36;15

is some North American

00;30;36;26 - 00;30;41;00

colleges and universities

actually are aware of the challenge

00;30;41;00 - 00;30;44;05

and they will, in effect, loan faculty

00;30;44;15 - 00;30;47;06

to teach at other places

00;30;47;06 - 00;30;50;07

for short periods of time with a way.

00;30;50;07 - 00;30;55;10

LTC International University in Lithuania

has a number of North American faculty

00;30;55;10 - 00;31;00;08

who are there and teach for a year or two

do have a wonderful experience there.

00;31;00;08 - 00;31;03;08

It's just tremendous.

00;31;04;02 - 00;31;07;07

But then they go back to a home base,

often elsewhere.

00;31;07;07 - 00;31;09;15

Some stay longer term.

00;31;09;15 - 00;31;12;17

When I taught in Russia

in the summer of 2004,

00;31;13;00 - 00;31;17;26

that was supported by a donor

to the Calvin University

00;31;19;03 - 00;31;22;29

who believed that it was important for

faculty to get international experience.

00;31;22;29 - 00;31;26;16

And it was a wonderful short term

teaching experience,

00;31;26;16 - 00;31;29;16

which I still value.

00;31;29;16 - 00;31;32;05

Yeah, and that opens

00;31;32;05 - 00;31;35;14

the door to a question I've had,

and that is the relationship

00;31;35;14 - 00;31;38;25

between North American Christian colleges

and universities in some of these

00;31;38;25 - 00;31;42;08

emerging Christian colleges

and universities around the world.

00;31;42;12 - 00;31;43;14

In what ways are they partnering?

00;31;43;14 - 00;31;45;09

It sounds like they're doing some faculty

exchange.

00;31;45;09 - 00;31;47;21

Are there

other ways that you see partnership

00;31;47;21 - 00;31;50;14

or maybe a particular example

that's just a role?

00;31;50;14 - 00;31;53;14

Yeah, exemplar in this world.

00;31;54;08 - 00;31;58;09

You know, for one thing,

there are all kinds of student

00;31;58;09 - 00;32;01;11

semester exchange programs. I

00;32;02;07 - 00;32;05;16

it does not do that work

because the institutions themselves

00;32;05;16 - 00;32;07;02

do it so well at this point.

00;32;08;07 - 00;32;09;01

But most

00;32;09;01 - 00;32;14;24

colleges or universities have some kinds

of exchange partnerships with areas

00;32;14;24 - 00;32;19;29

around the world and specific partners

they've come to rely on come to know.

00;32;19;29 - 00;32;24;11

They know families who have students

who have done it for 15, 20 years.

00;32;25;17 - 00;32;30;25

And what's interesting as well is that

I think when we have student semester

00;32;30;25 - 00;32;34;09

exchanges, you see more crossover

among theological traditions.

00;32;35;07 - 00;32;37;18

So you really find Protestant colleges

00;32;37;18 - 00;32;40;17

and universities that are partnering up

with Catholic universities

00;32;40;17 - 00;32;43;17

in some areas of the world

because they think it's the best match.

00;32;44;14 - 00;32;47;13

And and that's pretty healthy.

00;32;47;13 - 00;32;49;00

So there's a lot of student exchange.

00;32;49;00 - 00;32;52;00

I think, of faculty

00;32;52;20 - 00;32;54;01

partnerships.

00;32;54;01 - 00;32;57;18

There are some limited faculty

partnerships related to research and

00;32;57;18 - 00;32;59;09

scholarship.

00;32;59;09 - 00;33;02;02

And that's one of the things

we try to help happen.

00;33;02;02 - 00;33;04;06

The Fulbright Organization

00;33;04;06 - 00;33;08;02

with their faculty Fulbright Awards

is very helpful in that regard.

00;33;08;02 - 00;33;11;05

So yeah, I know of a Calvin University

professor

00;33;11;05 - 00;33;15;27

who was able to go to Nigeria,

to her home country, so she had him.

00;33;16;03 - 00;33;17;27

I don't think it was Fulbright,

I think it was Carnegie,

00;33;17;27 - 00;33;21;20

but she had an award to spend some time

there with the people working with them,

00;33;21;20 - 00;33;24;21

and then they visited

back in the United States.

00;33;25;27 - 00;33;28;27

So those kinds of things are very helpful.

00;33;29;00 - 00;33;31;22

But we do need a lot more research

to be done.

00;33;31;22 - 00;33;34;28

Things like climate change

don't stay in anybody's backyard.

00;33;35;16 - 00;33;37;10

They affect all of us all the time.

00;33;37;10 - 00;33;41;12

So we need to be doing global projects

together.

00;33;42;12 - 00;33;44;16

Yeah, it sounds like

there are lots of opportunities there

00;33;44;16 - 00;33;46;15

and some really good examples.

00;33;46;15 - 00;33;49;27

We talked a little bit about economics

and I imagine there's

00;33;50;15 - 00;33;53;20

a lot of North American

Christian colleges and universities

00;33;53;20 - 00;33;57;29

that would love to recruit

promising international students

00;33;57;29 - 00;33;59;22

and some of these younger

00;33;59;22 - 00;34;03;10

Christian colleges and universities

and established ones around the world

00;34;03;17 - 00;34;08;07

would love to retain those students

in their respective countries.

00;34;08;22 - 00;34;11;02

I'd love to hear.

00;34;11;02 - 00;34;11;20

Yeah.

00;34;11;20 - 00;34;15;12

And and the North American colleges

and universities can offer,

00;34;15;12 - 00;34;19;00

you know, significant financial aid, aid,

scholarships, things like that.

00;34;20;02 - 00;34;22;05

What are the economic models

00;34;22;05 - 00;34;27;23

and sort of the pressure points

that students encounter

00;34;27;23 - 00;34;30;23

and have to overcome

in different parts of the world?

00;34;31;28 - 00;34;34;20

So it'd be interesting to explore

that from a student perspective.

00;34;34;20 - 00;34;37;20

And then, you know,

I want to up with some questions around

00;34;37;25 - 00;34;41;08

the organizational perspective,

but what challenges do students face?

00;34;42;20 - 00;34;44;12

You know, the biggest

00;34;44;12 - 00;34;47;21

challenge for students is

how do you pay for it, right?

00;34;48;01 - 00;34;53;00

Because many times students in

other countries beyond the United States,

00;34;54;01 - 00;34;56;25

they don't

they don't have governmental financial aid

00;34;56;25 - 00;35;00;03

that can follow them

no matter where they go in the world.

00;35;00;03 - 00;35;04;02

Now, the UK is building a new system

for that called

00;35;04;02 - 00;35;07;18

the Turing system, which I think

would be better than what they did before.

00;35;08;02 - 00;35;12;09

And you do find an exchange

among the EU countries

00;35;12;28 - 00;35;15;15

through the Erasmus scholarship system

00;35;15;15 - 00;35;18;15

which helps them to exchange student

so they help each other.

00;35;18;22 - 00;35;22;28

But still in the majority world,

the big question is how?

00;35;23;01 - 00;35;26;02

How does a student from Brazil

who wants to attend

00;35;26;02 - 00;35;28;04

a college in the United

States, how do you pay for it

00;35;29;03 - 00;35;31;03

when you

don't have any federal financial aid?

00;35;31;03 - 00;35;34;02

Then it's all family resources.

00;35;34;02 - 00;35;36;20

So if you're from a well-to-do new family

00;35;36;20 - 00;35;39;20

that can afford it, they pay.

00;35;39;26 - 00;35;43;24

And if you're not,

you don't see an easy way to do this.

00;35;44;10 - 00;35;49;10

So Christian colleges and universities

in the United States

00;35;50;01 - 00;35;55;00

try to be responsive,

and many of them do have scholarships

00;35;55;14 - 00;35;59;21

to help students from other areas

because they think it's really healthy

00;36;00;17 - 00;36;04;11

for any student body

to have some international students in it

00;36;04;28 - 00;36;08;28

to to open up our perspectives on

what does it mean to be Christian.

00;36;08;28 - 00;36;10;27

It's not just all about your country.

00;36;10;27 - 00;36;13;27

It's about, you know, God's work

in the whole of the world.

00;36;14;13 - 00;36;17;29

So so that's important to them.

00;36;17;29 - 00;36;22;05

And so they do have scholarships,

many funded by donors

00;36;22;05 - 00;36;25;05

who over time

have a heart for the same thing.

00;36;25;05 - 00;36;28;15

Often the scholarship will pay

maybe half of the cost,

00;36;28;29 - 00;36;31;29

but the student still has to come up

with the other half.

00;36;32;03 - 00;36;33;15

So it's a huge challenge.

00;36;34;21 - 00;36;34;29

It's a

00;36;34;29 - 00;36;37;29

huge challenge to be able to study

in the United States.

00;36;38;06 - 00;36;42;07

And of course, they don't even have access

in many cases to things like student

00;36;42;07 - 00;36;45;13

loan programs that American students have

00;36;45;18 - 00;36;48;13

access to. Now.

00;36;48;13 - 00;36;49;29

So huge prices

00;36;49;29 - 00;36;52;29

on the part of families

say, to help that happen.

00;36;53;11 - 00;36;56;11

Yeah, it sounds like

what are the institutions do?

00;36;56;14 - 00;37;00;04

They don't have government assistance,

do they?

00;37;01;20 - 00;37;04;02

Do they rely on individual benefactors?

00;37;04;02 - 00;37;05;16

Are these

00;37;05;16 - 00;37;08;16

universities and colleges

mostly tuition driven?

00;37;09;07 - 00;37;10;09

How do they make it work?

00;37;10;09 - 00;37;12;13

What are the models

that you have seen out there?

00;37;12;13 - 00;37;14;17

And what

00;37;14;17 - 00;37;16;13

what seems to be successful,

00;37;16;13 - 00;37;19;13

particularly

with these with some of the emerging

00;37;19;13 - 00;37;22;13

colleges and universities

that are trying to get their footing?

00;37;22;27 - 00;37;25;27

These

these are mostly tuition based models

00;37;26;14 - 00;37;30;07

that this is students and parents pay

00;37;30;29 - 00;37;34;12

a faculty salaries are very modest.

00;37;35;16 - 00;37;38;16

People work incredibly hard

00;37;38;23 - 00;37;42;12

with high teaching loads

because they're dedicated a cause.

00;37;43;08 - 00;37;46;07

And the university

hopes and prays and plans

00;37;46;07 - 00;37;49;06

that its budget holds

together year to year.

00;37;50;02 - 00;37;50;25

Right.

00;37;50;25 - 00;37;53;08

And that's how it gradually develops.

00;37;53;08 - 00;37;58;24

And there's there's

a lot of faith out there

00;37;58;24 - 00;38;04;13

in in very big ways as these institutions

stretch themselves in the future.

00;38;04;13 - 00;38;07;29

I when I was in Uganda

and I talked to the people there,

00;38;08;00 - 00;38;11;03

they said we at Uganda

Christian University,

00;38;11;03 - 00;38;14;14

which is Anglican and its basis,

they said, well,

00;38;15;10 - 00;38;19;04

we weren't sure how we were going to fund

a medical and dental school,

00;38;20;00 - 00;38;23;19

but we knew our country needed one

and we felt called to do it.

00;38;23;22 - 00;38;25;07

So we did it.

00;38;25;07 - 00;38;28;05

And you go, Oh my goodness,

00;38;28;05 - 00;38;30;19

But they work to figure it out.

00;38;30;19 - 00;38;32;22

But it's, you know, it's a big challenge

00;38;33;26 - 00;38;36;07

because you don't have

00;38;36;07 - 00;38;40;08

the kind of cultivated networks of donors

that you have longstanding in the US.

00;38;40;08 - 00;38;43;26

You don't have the foundation structure

where you can go to private foundation,

00;38;43;27 - 00;38;44;20

ask for grants.

00;38;44;20 - 00;38;47;09

That's not nearly as common around

most of the world.

00;38;47;09 - 00;38;48;02

Yeah, yeah.

00;38;48;02 - 00;38;50;20

It's really a unique situation

we have here.

00;38;50;20 - 00;38;54;06

The models

I know the models or delivery mechanisms

00;38;54;22 - 00;38;57;11

play a big role in cost,

00;38;57;11 - 00;39;00;13

you know, virtual versus in-person.

00;39;01;17 - 00;39;03;25

What are what models

00;39;03;25 - 00;39;06;25

do you see out There is a kind of a mix

00;39;07;02 - 00;39;09;25

from traditional campuses where students

00;39;09;25 - 00;39;12;25

live on campus to hybrid model

00;39;13;01 - 00;39;17;03

commute, commuter models, where students

come in for the day and leave.

00;39;17;03 - 00;39;21;13

And so universities don't need to create

all the infrastructure to virtual models.

00;39;21;13 - 00;39;22;11

What do you see out there?

00;39;22;11 - 00;39;24;27

And again,

I'm asking you to to generalize, but

00;39;26;05 - 00;39;28;23

it'd be really interested to know if it

in some ways

00;39;28;23 - 00;39;32;15

reflects the range of possibilities

we have in North America.

00;39;34;09 - 00;39;36;28

I would say this about models,

00;39;36;28 - 00;39;40;26

and most of the models

that encountered are campus based,

00;39;42;20 - 00;39;44;06

but not all of the campus

00;39;44;06 - 00;39;47;12

based models include residential housing

00;39;47;22 - 00;39;51;19

that's very common in Christian colleges

and universities in United States.

00;39;52;14 - 00;39;55;14

It's uncommon in the rest of the world.

00;39;55;22 - 00;40;00;04

You know, students expect to go home

at night and live with their families

00;40;00;18 - 00;40;03;20

or live in a neighborhood

00;40;04;06 - 00;40;08;24

with a family there as the basis

for going to the university.

00;40;09;10 - 00;40;13;09

But residential

housing on campuses is more rare.

00;40;14;02 - 00;40;16;15

But here's the big thing.

00;40;16;15 - 00;40;19;15

The pandemic changed everything.

00;40;19;23 - 00;40;20;27

Interesting.

00;40;20;27 - 00;40;24;18

Because when you have a campus

based management model,

00;40;24;22 - 00;40;29;03

just like in the U.S., well,

and nobody can be on campus

00;40;29;03 - 00;40;33;19

because the virus spread and fear of it

and everybody has to go home.

00;40;34;24 - 00;40;37;10

Well, what do you do?

00;40;37;10 - 00;40;40;22

Virtually

anybody who could figure anything out

00;40;41;19 - 00;40;44;18

when online in some way

00;40;44;20 - 00;40;47;04

and even I have

00;40;47;04 - 00;40;50;29

we have a small Bible college

in eastern Uganda that's in our network.

00;40;51;25 - 00;40;55;22

And and I know they don't have much

of a technological infrastructure.

00;40;55;22 - 00;40;58;18

And they said we're open

and we're teaching.

00;40;58;18 - 00;41;01;13

And I said, Pastor Moses,

00;41;01;13 - 00;41;02;26

how are you doing this?

00;41;02;26 - 00;41;05;26

And he said, Well, we have phones.

00;41;06;20 - 00;41;11;00

So they were downloading

all their lessons, all their teaching

00;41;11;10 - 00;41;16;02

to people's phones, and that's

what they did during the pandemic.

00;41;16;08 - 00;41;20;14

So I think on this side, as we graduate,

as the pandemic,

00;41;20;14 - 00;41;24;21

gradually recedes around the world

and we find our way,

00;41;25;10 - 00;41;29;06

now, you see much more

because these these universities,

00;41;29;06 - 00;41;34;00

they had to upgrade their i.t

infrastructures just to do anything.

00;41;34;02 - 00;41;35;13

They had to do something

00;41;35;13 - 00;41;38;22

and they had been working on it

and they realize it's a priority.

00;41;39;07 - 00;41;43;00

So now there's much more experimentation

00;41;43;13 - 00;41;46;01

with combination programs

00;41;46;01 - 00;41;51;16

that are some residential

in person with some

00;41;52;29 - 00;41;54;02

computer.

00;41;54;02 - 00;41;57;03

I know one place in South Africa

00;41;57;15 - 00;42;00;08

that's trying to educate

Christian teachers

00;42;00;08 - 00;42;05;17

and they've created a second program

where students, mostly from rural areas,

00;42;05;17 - 00;42;07;25

are homesteading

a good share of the wheat,

00;42;07;25 - 00;42;11;13

but then they come into their campus

for these intensive in-person

00;42;11;13 - 00;42;15;27

weekend occasions because they still think

the in-person is important.

00;42;16;15 - 00;42;17;14

But how do you do it?

00;42;17;14 - 00;42;21;18

And when you do it and the balance

is different now after the pandemic.

00;42;23;01 - 00;42;24;07

So has so helpful.

00;42;24;07 - 00;42;26;05

And it it raises another question for me.

00;42;26;05 - 00;42;30;06

In the North American model, there are

so many extracurricular co-curricular

00;42;31;12 - 00;42;34;00

opportunities,

and I think a lot of these institutions

00;42;34;00 - 00;42;37;01

see that is really important formative

00;42;38;10 - 00;42;42;11

components of what it means

to get a Christian education, too.

00;42;42;29 - 00;42;45;14

And it sounds like

00;42;45;14 - 00;42;48;00

in other parts of the world, because of

00;42;49;01 - 00;42;49;15

lack of

00;42;49;15 - 00;42;50;20

infrastructure or

00;42;50;20 - 00;42;55;04

just the dynamics of an urban setting

or whatever it is, rural setting,

00;42;55;17 - 00;42;58;22

some of this can be really challenging

that it's a model that

00;42;58;29 - 00;43;03;11

doesn't lean as heavily

on the extracurricular and co-curricular,

00;43;03;11 - 00;43;06;11

and maybe there just isn't the margin

to do that.

00;43;06;22 - 00;43;10;06

But I'm curious, are some

are you starting to see

00;43;10;06 - 00;43;13;06

some Christian colleges

in other parts of the world

00;43;14;06 - 00;43;16;29

move in the direction of

00;43;16;29 - 00;43;19;29

co-curricular extracurricular,

00;43;21;20 - 00;43;23;15

formative kinds of experiences

00;43;23;15 - 00;43;27;07

that that look more typical

to the American model?

00;43;28;28 - 00;43;30;25

I think

00;43;30;25 - 00;43;32;28

there, is some movement in that direction.

00;43;32;28 - 00;43;36;06

I think a lot of the

the colleges and universities

00;43;36;06 - 00;43;39;06

I work with have some sports programs

00;43;40;03 - 00;43;41;25

sometimes are clubs, sports.

00;43;41;25 - 00;43;45;13

But of course, around the world,

for example, soccer is everywhere.

00;43;46;08 - 00;43;49;26

And soccer as a sport

doesn't have to be that expensive.

00;43;51;00 - 00;43;53;08

So so, you know, they they

00;43;53;08 - 00;43;57;17

lean toward sports opportunities

that are less expensive

00;43;58;22 - 00;43;59;16

for the students.

00;43;59;16 - 00;44;04;06

So they, you know, they don't have quite

the equipment costs or the infrastructure

00;44;04;06 - 00;44;07;06

costs of building big stadiums

or things like that.

00;44;07;16 - 00;44;12;07

But but they think that there is value

from what students learn from team sports.

00;44;12;21 - 00;44;16;28

So so you do see them

and you do see competitive clubs

00;44;16;29 - 00;44;21;06

of of things like soccer

and other sports around the world.

00;44;21;16 - 00;44;25;14

The variety depends on

I mean, you see cricket in some places and

00;44;25;15 - 00;44;29;27

and tennis and others and but it's there

00;44;30;18 - 00;44;34;06

but they do realize

I don't think there is many in most places

00;44;34;06 - 00;44;37;29

because many students do need to work

part of the time

00;44;38;11 - 00;44;41;27

to make money

to afford the tuition, to pay the tuition.

00;44;42;24 - 00;44;46;15

So so it's a it's

a little different balance, but it's not

00;44;46;22 - 00;44;52;11

these are not sterile environment

that people just come and go there.

00;44;52;15 - 00;44;56;20

There are clubs, their communities,

there are student organizations,

00;44;57;20 - 00;44;58;08

there are

00;44;58;08 - 00;45;02;00

you know, there are small coffee shops

and gathering places for lunch

00;45;02;27 - 00;45;06;01

that where there's a real social life,

where people are making

00;45;06;01 - 00;45;09;25

friends and lifelong,

you know, acquaintances.

00;45;10;14 - 00;45;11;11

Yeah, Well, that's

00;45;11;11 - 00;45;14;19

I you've painted a really vivid picture

of that As you walk around these places

00;45;14;23 - 00;45;17;23

in different parts of the world,

you see those kinds of interactions.

00;45;18;24 - 00;45;22;09

Students together,

you know, doing a lot of the things

00;45;22;09 - 00;45;23;15

that college students do right.

00;45;23;15 - 00;45;27;03

They forming friendships

that really do last a lifetime.

00;45;27;21 - 00;45;29;29

Surely you're a management

00;45;29;29 - 00;45;31;03

theorist.

00;45;31;03 - 00;45;34;03

If you had to sort of describe the growth

curve

00;45;34;06 - 00;45;37;06

of global Christian education,

00;45;38;22 - 00;45;40;04

how would you describe the curve?

00;45;40;04 - 00;45;43;22

Where is it in in its lifecycle?

00;45;46;05 - 00;45;49;05

I think it depends on what continent

you're part of.

00;45;49;15 - 00;45;50;06

Okay. Yeah.

00;45;50;06 - 00;45;55;01

And and it also depends on what

your vision for Christian education is.

00;45;55;18 - 00;45;58;26

If you think that Christian education

is primarily

00;45;58;26 - 00;46;02;06

focused on 18 year olds and 19 year old

00;46;03;08 - 00;46;06;08

emerging adults, then

00;46;06;25 - 00;46;09;11

Europe and North

00;46;09;11 - 00;46;12;11

America are not growth markets

00;46;12;16 - 00;46;15;00

because, you know, birthrates have fallen.

00;46;15;00 - 00;46;18;17

We already know that babies

that weren't born,

00;46;18;25 - 00;46;23;05

you know, 17, 18 years ago

are not going to be going to college in.

00;46;23;09 - 00;46;24;18

The that's right.

00;46;24;18 - 00;46;26;13

20 years from now.

00;46;26;13 - 00;46;28;01

Right.

00;46;28;01 - 00;46;30;14

But that assumes your only idea

00;46;30;14 - 00;46;34;11

is that that this kind of education

is for people who are 18 or 19.

00;46;35;00 - 00;46;38;00

You know,

there are some institutions who have said

00;46;38;05 - 00;46;42;00

there are multiple phases of life where

Christian education is really important

00;46;42;16 - 00;46;47;03

and they vary, invented themselves

to offer education to people in

00;46;47;03 - 00;46;51;04

their thirties and forties who are focused

on building professional knowledge,

00;46;51;21 - 00;46;55;02

and then people who are older who say,

00;46;55;20 - 00;46;59;20

I really want to take a pottery class

and I'm 65 and I can do it now.

00;46;59;28 - 00;47;02;27

And they want to go back

to a Christian college to do it.

00;47;02;27 - 00;47;06;02

So it depends on

how many different, you know,

00;47;07;09 - 00;47;10;03

people in different stages of life

you think it's about.

00;47;10;03 - 00;47;13;03

But if I had to think about the growth

curve

00;47;13;28 - 00;47;16;24

in the global South and East,

00;47;16;24 - 00;47;19;24

it is going to be huge.

00;47;19;29 - 00;47;25;06

I believe that 50%

or more of the African subsaharan

00;47;25;06 - 00;47;28;19

population is under the age of 18.

00;47;29;15 - 00;47;32;21

I mean, there are countries

where the average age is only in the

00;47;32;21 - 00;47;37;01

early thirties because there are so many

more children than had been born.

00;47;37;14 - 00;47;41;20

And with the increases

in the quality of global health care,

00;47;42;21 - 00;47;45;21

a family

that used to have four or five children

00;47;45;21 - 00;47;48;20

and have a couple of them die

before they were five years old.

00;47;48;20 - 00;47;52;06

Now these children live

and they're growing up and there are

00;47;52;27 - 00;47;55;07

millions of them

00;47;55;07 - 00;47;57;17

that are going to seek education.

00;47;57;17 - 00;48;00;05

So, you know, the opportunities in

00;48;00;05 - 00;48;03;16

some areas of the world are huge.

00;48;03;16 - 00;48;09;20

In places like Indonesia and India,

where populations are growing.

00;48;09;20 - 00;48;12;14

Pakistan has a huge population.

00;48;13;21 - 00;48;15;24

sub-Saharan Africa,

00;48;15;24 - 00;48;18;05

when you think about where they are

in the life

00;48;18;05 - 00;48;22;01

lifecycle of Christian higher education,

they are very young.

00;48;22;03 - 00;48;23;03

And that.

00;48;23;03 - 00;48;25;19

Yeah, so surely just scale that.

00;48;25;19 - 00;48;28;23

I just I want that to sink in because,

00;48;30;05 - 00;48;33;29

you know, these kids

who might have otherwise perished due

00;48;33;29 - 00;48;38;03

to disease, lack of nutrition or water,

they're not growing up healthy

00;48;38;17 - 00;48;41;17

because of advances in medicine and

00;48;42;07 - 00;48;44;15

other kinds of,

00;48;44;15 - 00;48;47;15

you know, health, hygiene kinds of things.

00;48;48;13 - 00;48;49;09

Just scale it.

00;48;49;09 - 00;48;52;02

Like how how many

00;48;52;02 - 00;48;54;28

Christian can't you just

you know, how many Christian colleges

00;48;54;28 - 00;48;57;29

could a place like Uganda host

00;48;59;18 - 00;49;01;08

or Kenya just

00;49;01;08 - 00;49;04;15

you know, as one example, you know,

could there be thousands

00;49;05;05 - 00;49;08;09

of these institutions

in a place like that?

00;49;09;26 - 00;49;10;20

Yeah.

00;49;10;20 - 00;49;16;00

Again,

it's it's a very context specific answer.

00;49;16;25 - 00;49;19;14

For example, in Kenya,

00;49;19;14 - 00;49;23;18

there was a huge growth

in the Christian colleges

00;49;24;01 - 00;49;27;17

between about 2000 and

00;49;28;04 - 00;49;30;20

2017, 18,

00;49;31;21 - 00;49;32;12

because there

00;49;32;12 - 00;49;35;15

was this mentality

that every child growing up

00;49;35;15 - 00;49;39;10

should go into higher education

and should be allowed.

00;49;40;02 - 00;49;43;02

And then the Kenyan government

looked at what they were doing

00;49;43;02 - 00;49;46;02

and how much it was costing and said,

you know what,

00;49;46;09 - 00;49;48;23

We have to raise the level

00;49;48;23 - 00;49;51;28

of the qualifying scores on

00;49;53;00 - 00;49;57;24

12th grade examinations that qualify

people to go to any university.

00;49;58;12 - 00;49;59;18

And they did.

00;49;59;18 - 00;50;03;19

And it cut the population of people

who could go to a university in half.

00;50;04;00 - 00;50;05;03

Right.

00;50;05;03 - 00;50;09;27

So you can look at the big picture

and say, oh, there's all these people.

00;50;10;13 - 00;50;13;21

But it also depends on how specific

countries

00;50;14;21 - 00;50;17;20

regulate and structure their systems

00;50;17;20 - 00;50;21;24

in terms of

who is eligible for higher education.

00;50;21;24 - 00;50;24;24

And it also depends on

00;50;25;15 - 00;50;28;15

what people can afford

and how you finance.

00;50;28;16 - 00;50;32;03

And so, yeah, financially

healthy countries are going

00;50;32;03 - 00;50;36;08

to have many more people pursuing

Christian higher education

00;50;36;25 - 00;50;39;28

than countries

that are in economic trouble.

00;50;40;13 - 00;50;41;29

Yeah, it's really complex.

00;50;41;29 - 00;50;44;04

It's sounds like it.

00;50;44;04 - 00;50;47;03

You know, one of the things

that we didn't talk about accreditation

00;50;47;03 - 00;50;50;13

standards, I imagine that that's something

that's starting to emerge as well.

00;50;50;13 - 00;50;54;09

Are you starting to see

that become more central in some of

00;50;54;15 - 00;50;56;14

in some of these countries

and. Regions of the. Oh, yeah.

00;50;57;14 - 00;50;59;02

Most most of these countries

00;50;59;02 - 00;51;02;28

realize that they have to have some kind

of an accrediting structure.

00;51;03;07 - 00;51;03;18

Yeah.

00;51;03;18 - 00;51;06;18

To have quality results

00;51;06;20 - 00;51;09;16

and they're serious about it.

00;51;09;16 - 00;51;13;12

So, you know, it's it's varied

and you have to try to figure it out.

00;51;13;12 - 00;51;18;22

And every country has its own system

and you have to try to learn as you go.

00;51;19;00 - 00;51;22;19

But in our network, for example,

you can only be influenced to, to

00;51;22;21 - 00;51;25;21

remember

if you are a nationally accredited

00;51;25;28 - 00;51;28;23

because we at least see that as one screen

00;51;28;23 - 00;51;31;23

of control related to quality.

00;51;32;01 - 00;51;34;25

You can be an affiliate member

of our network and we'll help you

00;51;34;25 - 00;51;36;08

if you're not yet accredited.

00;51;36;08 - 00;51;39;22

But to be a full institutional member,

you need to be accredited.

00;51;40;02 - 00;51;43;18

But most countries realize

that accreditation

00;51;43;18 - 00;51;47;20

is a means to be helpful

in settings and standards

00;51;47;20 - 00;51;53;02

and having institutions

rise to the standard so they work at.

00;51;55;05 - 00;51;55;27

I want to start

00;51;55;27 - 00;51;59;08

moving our conversation to a conclusion.

00;51;59;19 - 00;52;02;16

I'm going to ask this this question

in the form of in

00;52;02;16 - 00;52;05;16

some ways it's kind of a prayer request.

00;52;05;16 - 00;52;08;13

But what you know,

you've painted a picture of

00;52;08;13 - 00;52;11;17

of opportunities and challenges

and you've done

00;52;11;17 - 00;52;14;17

so vividly.

00;52;14;23 - 00;52;17;13

What's the key thing

00;52;17;13 - 00;52;20;13

that you hope our listeners

00;52;20;14 - 00;52;23;14

take away, particularly

00;52;23;26 - 00;52;26;11

in the possibilities?

00;52;26;11 - 00;52;29;18

I'd love to hear you

sort of respond to that.

00;52;29;18 - 00;52;33;07

And then how can

how can for those who care

00;52;33;07 - 00;52;36;26

about Christian education and care

about different parts of the world,

00;52;37;05 - 00;52;40;05

what's a practical way

that somebody could get involved?

00;52;44;22 - 00;52;46;29

I think

00;52;46;29 - 00;52;49;29

one of the things to pray about

00;52;50;11 - 00;52;52;03

is that

00;52;52;03 - 00;52;55;03

nations that really need

00;52;55;05 - 00;52;58;25

Christian higher education are open to it.

00;53;03;05 - 00;53;04;21

You know,

00;53;04;21 - 00;53;08;24

nations have different systems

of openness to Christianity,

00;53;10;06 - 00;53;13;15

but you

do sometimes see remarkable changes

00;53;14;16 - 00;53;16;19

in Pakistan right now,

00;53;16;19 - 00;53;19;19

where Christians are about

5% of the population.

00;53;20;10 - 00;53;24;20

There's a new openness

to a Christian university

00;53;26;04 - 00;53;28;11

supported by Korean missionaries

00;53;28;11 - 00;53;31;02

that you think could this come from.

00;53;31;02 - 00;53;34;02

And somehow in the Pakistani government,

00;53;34;09 - 00;53;37;05

all of a sudden it seemed like a good idea

00;53;37;05 - 00;53;40;05

to pray for places like that.

00;53;40;16 - 00;53;43;16

And and I would say, you know,

we can't all do everything

00;53;44;12 - 00;53;48;10

but find a place,

a region of the world in the country.

00;53;48;24 - 00;53;52;01

And particularly institutions

that you care about.

00;53;52;25 - 00;53;55;20

And many of these

00;53;55;20 - 00;53;59;10

institutions have partnership

funds in the United States

00;53;59;10 - 00;54;04;08

to which you can contribute very easily

with a standard U.S.

00;54;04;08 - 00;54;08;25

tax deduction for a donation,

and you can help to support them

00;54;08;25 - 00;54;11;25

and their work by contributing

00;54;11;26 - 00;54;15;20

to that work through a US

partnership fund that they host here.

00;54;16;29 - 00;54;19;06

And I would encourage you to do so.

00;54;19;06 - 00;54;23;09

It's amazing what a difference

a few hundred dollars can make

00;54;23;25 - 00;54;26;25

in many areas of the world.

00;54;27;07 - 00;54;31;10

And sometimes it's the money

and sometimes it's the it's the message

00;54;31;10 - 00;54;36;13

that the money sends, which is we

are with you, we are Christians with you

00;54;36;13 - 00;54;41;25

who care about the education information

of your children as Christians.

00;54;42;08 - 00;54;45;21

And we are with you from North America

to wherever you are.

00;54;46;04 - 00;54;47;29

You're not alone.

00;54;47;29 - 00;54;50;04

Yeah, that's that's so helpful.

00;54;50;04 - 00;54;51;04

Well, well said.

00;54;51;04 - 00;54;56;00

And we will put in the show

notes, contact information

00;54;56;00 - 00;54;59;19

for Shirley in the international network

for Christian Higher Education.

00;54;59;19 - 00;55;03;03

Insch is an institution that is working

00;55;03;27 - 00;55;06;27

at the forefront of all these issues, and

00;55;07;06 - 00;55;09;17

that's a place people can give as well.

00;55;09;17 - 00;55;11;24

Right. And directory sources, certainly.

00;55;11;24 - 00;55;14;07

We accept donations, no question. So

00;55;15;15 - 00;55;16;12

so that's great.

00;55;16;12 - 00;55;20;10

And you can also I know your organization

can also address questions for those

00;55;20;10 - 00;55;22;11

who might be motivated to get involved

00;55;22;11 - 00;55;26;07

and wonder how to take a next step

in a particular region of the world.

00;55;26;07 - 00;55;28;06

So that's really helpful.

00;55;28;06 - 00;55;31;17

Shirley, as we begin

as we wrap here, I'd love to hear

00;55;32;12 - 00;55;34;16

I know you have your hands in

lots of different things.

00;55;34;16 - 00;55;36;23

Is there something you're working on

right now

00;55;36;23 - 00;55;38;12

that you're just really excited about?

00;55;38;12 - 00;55;41;12

I know you've

you know, you're an author and

00;55;42;01 - 00;55;45;01

you bring a lot of expertise

to organizational leadership.

00;55;46;10 - 00;55;49;19

It might be to your work with NIH,

something else you're working on.

00;55;49;19 - 00;55;53;00

But what do you what are you working on

these days that has you really excited?

00;55;53;09 - 00;55;57;06

Maybe it's a new angle

or fresh angle on some of your work

00;55;57;06 - 00;55;58;29

that you've been committed

to for so many years?

00;56;01;06 - 00;56;03;11

One of

the things that I keep working on it

00;56;03;11 - 00;56;06;23

got a little stalled during

the pandemic is

00;56;06;23 - 00;56;09;23

I am really trying to get our network

00;56;10;06 - 00;56;15;08

to create a small scale seminar

00;56;16;06 - 00;56;19;05

for senior leaders

00;56;19;15 - 00;56;24;01

who teach business

in their Christian universities

00;56;24;29 - 00;56;29;17

to think deeply

about how faith and theology ought

00;56;29;19 - 00;56;35;17

to connect with the goals, the structures,

the practices, the ethics of business.

00;56;35;17 - 00;56;39;01

That brings me all the way back

to my teaching field where I started.

00;56;39;20 - 00;56;43;15

But I just think

one of the things that we are really needs

00;56;44;03 - 00;56;47;11

is ethical Christian business leaders.

00;56;47;25 - 00;56;52;27

And if we can create a seminar

where we teach the teachers who then teach

00;56;52;27 - 00;56;56;18

the students, maybe we will have added

something that the world really needs.

00;56;56;18 - 00;56;59;17

So that's that's one thing

I spent time on this morning.

00;56;59;22 - 00;57;03;27

I was thinking about my strategy for that,

where we would host who would be part of

00;57;03;27 - 00;57;07;01

it started to make a list of people

we might invite.

00;57;07;19 - 00;57;10;12

Oh, that's wonderful.

That touches my heart.

00;57;10;12 - 00;57;12;13

I care about that, that field as well.

00;57;12;13 - 00;57;14;17

So I am so glad you're leaning into that.

00;57;14;17 - 00;57;18;17

And I'm excited to hear

that you're excited about that

00;57;18;17 - 00;57;19;11

and you're working on it.

00;57;19;11 - 00;57;22;00

So that's that's fantastic.

00;57;22;00 - 00;57;23;20

Well, Shirley, I've enjoyed this.

00;57;23;20 - 00;57;26;23

I so appreciate all the work that you do.

00;57;27;20 - 00;57;29;25

Thank you for your heart, for the world

00;57;30;24 - 00;57;31;18

and the way

00;57;31;18 - 00;57;34;19

you're invested in Christian education

around the globe.

00;57;34;19 - 00;57;36;08

It's making a big difference.

00;57;36;08 - 00;57;38;21

And you've inspired us today

with some wonderful stories.

00;57;38;21 - 00;57;41;21

So we are grateful for your time

and for your work.

00;57;42;04 - 00;57;44;23

But thanks for having me today.

00;57;44;23 - 00;57;48;13

This is work I love and I'm glad to share

00;57;48;16 - 00;57;51;16

at least some of it with everyone else.

00;57;51;20 - 00;57;53;06

Well, we appreciate it.

00;57;53;06 - 00;57;56;06

Shirley,

thank you so much for being with us.

00;57;58;04 - 00;57;59;16

Thanks for joining us.

00;57;59;16 - 00;58;02;29

If you've enjoyed today's podcast,

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00;58;02;29 - 00;58;05;28

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00;58;06;15 - 00;58;10;16

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00;58;10;28 - 00;58;15;06

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00;58;15;06 - 00;58;19;09

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00;58;19;09 - 00;58;22;08

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00;58;22;12 - 00;58;27;04

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00;58;27;04 - 00;58;32;08

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00;58;32;27 - 00;58;37;05

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