Shirley Roels, the executive director of the International Network for Christian Higher Education (INCHE), joins John Terrill for a discussion on the international landscape of Christian higher education. 

Learn about Shirley Roels & INCHE

With Faith in Mind is produced at Upper House in Madison, Wisconsin and hosted by Director of University Engagement Dan Hummel and Executive Director John Terrill. Jesse Koopman is the Executive Producer. Upper House is an initiative of the Stephen & Laurel Brown Foundation.

Please reach out to us with comments or questions at podcast@slbrownfoundation.org. We’d love to hear from you.

Transcript

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Welcome to the With Faith in Mind podcast

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and our current series entitled

Christian Education at the Crossroads.

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I'm one of the hosts, John Terrell, and I

am excited about today's conversation

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where we explore the character

of Christian higher education globally.

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In this episode, we welcome Dr.

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Shirley Roels to the show.

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Shirley, it is so nice to see you.

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Thank you for joining us today.

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And good to be here.

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Well, it is good to have you here.

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Let me tell our listeners

a little bit about Shirley.

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Dr. Rules is the executive director

of the International Network

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for Christian Higher Education,

otherwise known as Inch.

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Previously, she was the director of

the Network for Vocation in Undergraduate

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Education, hosted by the Council

of Independent Colleges USA.

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Shirley is also a professor emeritus

at Calvin University

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in the field of managing it,

where she served as department

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chair, Academic Dean Grant,

director and director of the Van

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Loon and Center for Executive Management

in Christian Schools.

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Her authored or edited publications

include Business Through the Eyes of Faith

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on Moral Business, Organizational Man,

Organizational Women Calling Leadership

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and Culture and Reformed Mission

in an Age of World Christianity.

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Shirley, Your bio is long.

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I could go on and on, but

you've been played such a prominent role

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in Christian education

for for so many years. And

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and you've committed your life to this.

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And so I'd like to start off

our conversation today

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asking you about a teacher or mentor

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who played an important role in your life

that helped

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you decide to go into this field.

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I wonder if you could just share a story

or a person from your background

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that that really made a difference for you

with respect to your decision

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to really commit your life

to Christian higher education?

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I would say one person who immediately

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comes to my mind,

he was my undergraduate advisor.

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His name was Delma Camp.

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He was a professor of communications.

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I was a first semester, an experienced

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freshman

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in his course, scared to death.

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And it was a course in public speaking.

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He encouraged me.

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I looked at the sophomores

and juniors around me

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and he said, You can do this

just like they are,

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even though they're a year

or two older than you are.

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And I was very encouraged

and I worked through him.

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I think he helped me

to frame my own education more broadly

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as a Christian so that I was connecting

all of the pieces.

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So I saw all of my education

as faith infused.

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And he was an important person in terms of

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practical guidance

and courses that I was taking.

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I also had him as a professor

in several courses.

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So I have very fond memories

of his influence

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and specific

people make a difference for each of us.

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Oh, absolutely.

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That's a great story. And I know I don't

know about your undergraduate work.

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Was it at Calvin University?

It was in Calvin.

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I was your undergraduate

in Communications,

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which was a broad

liberal arts major at the time.

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And then I had a minor in social sciences

at the time.

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I can imagine that it's wonderful

to have that kind of example,

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particularly in public

speaking situations, to

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reflect back on his encouragement

and see his face

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in some of those challenging situations

that I'm sure you've had to be in, where

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you're speaking in front of large groups

or having to communicate in delicate ways.

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Oh, yes, I learned a lot.

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I learned about semantics.

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I learned about group communications.

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I learned about persuasion.

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Many things from him.

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Yeah, that's a great story.

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Thank you for sharing that.

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Well, one of the reasons we thought

you would be such a fantastic guest

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is that you can help us contextualize Christian education outside of North America.

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In some ways,

you know, we think you can really help us

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bust some myths for many of us,

and I'll speak for myself.

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A natural inclination

is to think that organizational life

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around the world mirrors

what we experience here.

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I think we can think

monolithically about it.

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We can tend to overgeneralize.

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But my guess is that that's not the case

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with Christian colleges

located in different parts of the world.

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And so, you know,

I want to ask and lead with this question.

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Do Christian colleges around the world

look like North American,

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Christian colleges and universities,

or are they different?

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And the answer, of course,

is it all depends.

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Okay.

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You know what?

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What I would observe

is that there are some very established

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universities and colleges around the world

that have been in existence.

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And they're Christian.

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They've been here for more than 100 years.

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And in those kinds of cases,

they frequently

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look more like North

American colleges and universities.

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But with the global growth of Christianity

in the south and east,

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there has been an absolute explosion

of new Christian colleges

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and universities, many of which

are anywhere from 1 to 25 years old.

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They're much younger as organizations,

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huge amounts of energy,

huge amounts of vision,

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and they are still finding themselves

in terms of organizational processes,

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trying to recruit faculty

and trying to do a lot of things.

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So it really is

highly varied around the world.

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I'll give you maybe one working example.

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The country of Uganda

realized about 30 years ago

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that they did not, as a small country,

have the resources

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to build much of a public university

system.

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Mm hmm.

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So they shaped their system

to encourage private institutions.

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And I believe 24 or 25

Christian universities were born

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within the next 15 years.

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Wow. And it is a huge

force in a country like that.

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What are the numbers?

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I'm just thinking about

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we're going to talk a little bit

about your organization, but

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just for for this

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for understanding kind of scale and scope

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and maybe there isn't a total number,

but can you can you talk about numbers?

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Can you talk about numbers regionally?

How many Christian colleges

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and universities

are there outside of North America?

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It is really a total number

that I don't know,

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but I would say

it is probably in the thousands.

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Okay.

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And what we find is that

when you go into a context,

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for example, like India,

where I have some connection.

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The deeper we dig,

the more Christian colleges we find.

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And we have discovered

there is a there's a significant network

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of them are probably

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60 or 70 of them, at least in the country.

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And then you go to another country

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and they're still building their systems,

for example, in Nigeria.

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I just found a new Pentecostal

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based university, which seems to have

excellent academic quality.

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Well, they just started in 2015.

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So, you know, these institutions

keep growing and emerging and beginning.

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So it's hard to get a total number.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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And by comparison standards, about 150

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Christian colleges and universities,

they're probably more than that.

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But I think some of the associations

are at about 150 200 in the US.

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Is that about right?

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It depends on how you define what it means

to be a Christian college or university.

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If you if you say that a Christian college

or university in the United States,

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for example, was historically founded

and remains connected

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to some underlying religious order

or Christian denomination

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or not,

you know, multi denominational group,

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then I would say in the United States

there are several hundred,

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if you want to

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say that there is a tighter configuration

of saying

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what constitutes being Christian college,

is that all your faculty are Christian,

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then you're between 100 and 150, probably.

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Okay.

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And it gets complicated when you start

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drawing in Catholic colleges

and universities.

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Oh, yeah. Yeah.

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It really changes the dynamic.

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And and people do not realize

and even within the United States

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with a strong force, Catholic colleges

and universities have become in part

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because of discrimination against Catholic

schools that began in the mid 1800s.

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And this sense, we can't be part

of the public sector as much.

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So we will build our own

educational systems.

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Right.

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Well, I'm going to ask you

to generalize here just as we get started,

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and then I'm going to try

not to do that again.

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But what would you say

is the biggest difference

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with respect to Christian higher education

outside

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of North America versus in North America?

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If you had to sort of list

the biggest difference, what would it be?

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I would I would cite a couple things.

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First of all,

I would say that the the balance

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between general education

based on the liberal arts and

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education

that is more applied and in applied

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fields of study is often different

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because in a lot of emerging

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economies, in less developed

majority world countries,

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there's there's such a press for people

who have knowledge

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and skills that is useful

in terms of building the community,

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building the economy, building

business, building governments.

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And so, you know,

I would say a lot of the universities,

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you go into them with the expectation

that you are going to major in agriculture

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or education or business or engineering

or information

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technology

or social work or something like that.

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You don't start

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as readily with a couple of years

of General education and coursework study,

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and that is a

a little bit of a flip from the U.S.

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model where most people say, well,

the first year or two is general study

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and then you gradually concentrate

more in applied field.

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So that's one big difference.

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The other big difference, I would say,

is that people in the United States

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do not realize how

blessed we are in terms of a

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support

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network for private higher education

in the United States.

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We have a governmentally funded,

federally funded financial aid system

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that supports students

in both public and private universities.

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Most countries around the world

do not have an equivalent like that.

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There are exceptions.

Canada is pretty generous.

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A lot of countries

don't have a system like that.

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Students are on their own.

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It's parents and students working together

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to finance the whole works.

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Even even in public universities,

not just private.

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Even public.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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And. And so and and around the world,

there isn't

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the kind of tax structure we had

in the United States that encourages

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donors to give funds to private and public

universities.

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There's.

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Yes. Many countries don't have

so the whole financing mechanism

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that's quite different.

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Yeah.

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Really interesting. Yes.

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I imagine there are again,

I just asked you to generalize.

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I'm going to ask you to do it again.

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But but in a different kind of way, if

you think about the regions of the world.

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Are there similarities?

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Is that that bear on particular regions?

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I know your work is on six continents.

I think.

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So you you have a chance to kind of work

regionally.

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What what similarities or differences

do you see

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across regions of the world?

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I think probably

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one of the similarities occurs

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just because of the age of institutions.

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So if you look at the context

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of Europe and North America, U.S.

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and Canada,

the private Christian higher education

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has been around for quite some time,

although Canada's

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situation is quite different

than the U.S..

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The Canadian government didn't believe

that private Christian higher education

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could actually work until being convinced

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by example in the last 40 years.

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But generally, you do find a fair number

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of similarities with particularly Western

Europe and the U.S.

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and and with Australia too, in terms of

what is there.

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Although the Christian college movement

in Australia,

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it has resulted in a number

of smaller schools, but

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it's considerably different

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from what you find in

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Africa, for example,

where you have many younger institutions.

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And I would say what's interesting,

of course, is that

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every continent has differences.

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So in Latin America, the primary providers

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of Christian higher education are Catholic

universities.

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Well, there's logic, though,

given the overlay of Spanish

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and and Portuguese colonialism,

that it would be Catholic.

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And so you don't find near

as many Protestant institutions.

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They're quite rare in Latin America.

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But the Catholic institutions,

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some of them are quite serious about

what does faith have to do with learning.

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So it's and then, of course,

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Asia is its own context,

and it varies from country to country.

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Korea has some many strong

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Christian universities in Korea

because of the high rates

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of conversion to Christianity

over the course of a century

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in China because of government repression.

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It's very difficult

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to be in that context.

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And and it really is not possible

in mainland China

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to have a private Christian university.

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Indonesia, on the other hand, it's

probably more than

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85% Muslim, but they've created space

for Christian universities.

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And there are a couple of very lively

and very effective ones in Indonesia.

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So my very.

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You know, it's really interesting.

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There are a couple of real hotspots,

countries

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around the world

where they just seem to high, hyper

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proliferate of

of new Christian colleges and universities

00;15;12;13 - 00;15;15;13

and they just seem to be really generating

lots of activity.

00;15;16;06 - 00;15;19;06

I would say that

00;15;19;08 - 00;15;22;08

in Africa there's a lot going on

00;15;22;20 - 00;15;28;19

because of the high conversion

rates to Christianity.

00;15;29;05 - 00;15;32;27

You go to a country like Kenya

and most people

00;15;32;27 - 00;15;36;26

will say roughly 80% of the population

in Kenya is now Christian,

00;15;38;16 - 00;15;40;02

which is huge.

00;15;40;02 - 00;15;42;24

And these are people, families

00;15;42;24 - 00;15;45;24

looking for education for their children.

00;15;46;02 - 00;15;50;09

And there are a huge

I mean, there's just a huge number

00;15;50;09 - 00;15;53;09

of Christian college and university

Z's grown up in Kenya.

00;15;54;24 - 00;15;57;07

The thing they're trying to find their way

through

00;15;57;07 - 00;16;00;13

is is to say, well, we don't just compete.

00;16;00;13 - 00;16;03;12

We ought to cooperate

and help each other, too.

00;16;04;00 - 00;16;08;09

And so I recall a meeting

we had in Nairobi before the pandemic.

00;16;08;15 - 00;16;12;27

We gathered a bunch of them who are that

are within an hour of Nairobi for lunch.

00;16;12;27 - 00;16;15;22

And they all looked at each other

and they said,

00;16;15;22 - 00;16;18;23

Why are we talking more to each other

and helping each other?

00;16;19;12 - 00;16;22;05

And then, of course, the pandemic began.

00;16;22;05 - 00;16;23;28

So we're still left with that question.

00;16;24;27 - 00;16;25;13

But that's

00;16;25;13 - 00;16;29;28

I'd say that's a hotspot, as is Uganda,

without question.

00;16;29;28 - 00;16;32;28

The other place I would say is Nigeria.

00;16;33;03 - 00;16;33;21

Okay.

00;16;33;21 - 00;16;36;20

There are several very, very strong, solid

00;16;37;16 - 00;16;40;16

Christian universities in Nigeria

that are growing up.

00;16;40;16 - 00;16;42;08

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00;16;42;08 - 00;16;44;12

Well,

that that's really interesting to hear.

00;16;44;12 - 00;16;46;21

And I imagine

00;16;46;21 - 00;16;49;22

I can just hear your passion

as you share some of those stories.

00;16;49;22 - 00;16;52;28

And I would love to hear a little bit

about your story,

00;16;52;28 - 00;16;57;11

which I know is really rich,

particularly your vocational story.

00;16;57;11 - 00;16;59;20

What what brought you to Edge?

00;16;59;20 - 00;17;01;29

I know there's a story there, surely.

00;17;01;29 - 00;17;07;01

I left because someone once asked me

how I got this job, and I said, That's

00;17;07;01 - 00;17;10;27

because God has a good sense of humor

about my colleague.

00;17;12;10 - 00;17;16;12

It's just, you know,

I mean, I decided by the time I was 25,

00;17;16;12 - 00;17;19;12

I have completed the application

to seminary and thought,

00;17;19;27 - 00;17;24;22

yeah, it's it's not the kind

I believe in the importance of the church,

00;17;24;22 - 00;17;29;20

but I don't belong inside

the context of the church per say,

00;17;30;12 - 00;17;32;22

leading a congregation. What is it?

00;17;32;22 - 00;17;33;26

And it struck me.

00;17;33;26 - 00;17;36;24

It was my great love of education

00;17;36;24 - 00;17;40;01

and my love of management

and my love of theology.

00;17;40;01 - 00;17;43;11

That all led me to say the future, really,

where I belong is Christian.

00;17;43;21 - 00;17;47;26

Higher education in some way,

but how it would take shape, Who knew?

00;17;48;09 - 00;17;53;04

And I loved my years

of teaching, but I have this.

00;17;54;04 - 00;17;55;24

Some people think it's an ad

00;17;55;24 - 00;18;00;03

that toward administrating

and organizing programs and initiatives.

00;18;00;14 - 00;18;01;25

And I think that's really.

00;18;01;25 - 00;18;05;01

The not the

not the non administrator amongst us

00;18;05;01 - 00;18;08;06

don't think it's a strange bent

they're grateful for the bent but.

00;18;08;18 - 00;18;12;29

And so that's really what I've done

without and without an obvious path.

00;18;13;08 - 00;18;16;12

I think I just

I looked at what was in front of me

00;18;16;12 - 00;18;21;02

and the question was what needs doing that

you know about

00;18;22;09 - 00;18;23;10

your position to do?

00;18;23;10 - 00;18;25;27

So that's the sense of calling.

00;18;25;27 - 00;18;30;12

So it wasn't anything dramatic,

but that's what occurred.

00;18;31;03 - 00;18;31;14

Yeah.

00;18;31;14 - 00;18;33;25

And so you've been at in how many years?

00;18;33;25 - 00;18;36;25

Well, I've been involved in this network

00;18;37;00 - 00;18;41;06

probably since the late 1980s

when I first learned about it

00;18;41;06 - 00;18;45;19

and was always curious about global

Christian higher education.

00;18;45;29 - 00;18;49;05

But it wasn't something

I could do a lot with early on.

00;18;49;25 - 00;18;52;06

But in the nineties

my world got a lot bigger.

00;18;52;06 - 00;18;55;07

I was invited to lecture in both mainland

00;18;55;07 - 00;18;59;07

China and in Russia,

so I'd been in Russia four times.

00;18;59;07 - 00;19;03;11

I've been in mainland China

three times lecturing and participating

00;19;03;11 - 00;19;06;22

in seminars and that really broadened

my thinking about a lot of things.

00;19;08;08 - 00;19;11;11

And so

I always had a hand in this network.

00;19;11;11 - 00;19;12;15

I was always a member.

00;19;12;15 - 00;19;15;16

I wasn't in a specific leadership

role, but

00;19;15;16 - 00;19;18;16

I always read the newsletter

and I always paid attention.

00;19;18;23 - 00;19;23;09

And when the Priory, one of the prior

00;19;23;10 - 00;19;26;25

directors left in his office, was right

across the hall from mine.

00;19;27;14 - 00;19;29;20

And I knew that needed a new director.

00;19;29;20 - 00;19;31;24

And I thought, well, maybe, maybe not.

00;19;31;24 - 00;19;35;04

And then I got an email

from a couple of Christians in Slovakia

00;19;35;04 - 00;19;39;19

who they said, Can you do something

to help us in Christian higher education?

00;19;39;19 - 00;19;41;17

I thought, okay, that's it.

00;19;41;17 - 00;19;43;11

I have to I have to think about this.

00;19;43;11 - 00;19;46;00

And then it happened. From there

00;19;46;00 - 00;19;48;23

it was a little bit like Paul's

call to Macedonia or something.

00;19;48;23 - 00;19;51;01

You couldn't couldn't quite resist that.

00;19;53;24 - 00;19;55;06

That's really well,

00;19;55;06 - 00;19;57;17

I know our listeners would love to hear

about

00;19;57;17 - 00;20;01;10

Inge Mission, vision goals.

00;20;02;01 - 00;20;03;27

It play such a crucial role.

00;20;03;27 - 00;20;08;04

Could you describe what it is

that it does around the world?

00;20;08;20 - 00;20;11;20

Yeah, I started by saying this

00;20;11;20 - 00;20;14;20

Ich was not a North American creation.

00;20;15;15 - 00;20;19;16

This network was born in South Africa

in:

00;20;20;18 - 00;20;22;22

by some Christian

00;20;22;22 - 00;20;26;24

philosophers and theologians

who said we should talk to people on

00;20;26;24 - 00;20;31;02

other continents and learn from each other

and organize a conference.

00;20;31;17 - 00;20;34;17

And things went from there

with periodic conferences.

00;20;34;27 - 00;20;37;27

But it's not a North American invention,

00;20;38;24 - 00;20;41;07

and we are active on six continents.

00;20;41;07 - 00;20;44;26

We have primarily college and university

members.

00;20;45;14 - 00;20;48;16

We've got between 40 and 50 universities

00;20;48;16 - 00;20;51;16

and colleges

that are active members of our network.

00;20;52;23 - 00;20;55;07

Our primary work is, we say

00;20;55;07 - 00;20;58;11

it is to inform, connect and equip.

00;20;59;00 - 00;21;02;16

And so we try to inform people

around the world of what

00;21;02;16 - 00;21;04;15

their counterparts are doing.

00;21;04;15 - 00;21;06;27

So, you know,

if you're in a medical school

00;21;06;27 - 00;21;10;11

in one country, in a university

that's Christian, we try to find you

00;21;10;12 - 00;21;11;29

and connect you to a medical school

00;21;11;29 - 00;21;15;21

in another country

that's doing something similar, similar.

00;21;15;25 - 00;21;19;22

You know, if people are in the field

of education, we try to connect them.

00;21;19;22 - 00;21;21;18

So they learn from each other.

00;21;21;18 - 00;21;25;25

So, you know, informing and connecting

people and then equipping people.

00;21;26;02 - 00;21;28;27

As we have grant funds available, we do

00;21;28;27 - 00;21;31;26

professional development projects

00;21;31;26 - 00;21;35;27

primarily for faculty members

to help them think about

00;21;36;15 - 00;21;41;20

how does Christian faith

and a framework of faith affect

00;21;42;11 - 00;21;45;11

how we teach and learn

what we teach and learn,

00;21;45;14 - 00;21;50;09

and how we tell Christian students

to go about engaging their cultures?

00;21;51;29 - 00;21;54;29

And so, for example, we just started a new

00;21;55;21 - 00;21;58;21

grant project in Africa called

00;21;59;00 - 00;22;02;02

Preparing Redemptive Change Agents,

00;22;02;07 - 00;22;05;06

and we will work with faculty on

00;22;05;06 - 00;22;09;11

how do we think about what it means to

educate our students to become redemptive,

00;22;09;11 - 00;22;13;18

changed agents in their culture

and curriculum and teaching wise?

00;22;13;18 - 00;22;16;06

What do we do to help that happen?

00;22;16;06 - 00;22;19;11

Yeah, surely

that leads me to my next question,

00;22;19;11 - 00;22;23;13

and I'd love to know more

about the reasons

00;22;23;13 - 00;22;27;09

students and families pursue Christian

education in different parts of the world.

00;22;27;09 - 00;22;32;07

You've talked about some of these

cultural challenges and engaging culture,

00;22;32;07 - 00;22;35;07

but I'm I'm curious to know

00;22;35;27 - 00;22;39;27

what what you've learned about the reasons

that families

00;22;40;08 - 00;22;43;16

and students in particular pursue

Christian education.

00;22;45;23 - 00;22;48;05

There are lots of reasons.

00;22;48;05 - 00;22;49;22

I think some families

00;22;51;08 - 00;22;53;28

think that they really want their sons

and daughters

00;22;53;28 - 00;22;58;11

to learn more about the Bible

and about theology,

00;22;58;11 - 00;23;02;17

and they think of Christian college

or university is the right the best place

00;23;02;17 - 00;23;07;19

to do that as an extension that can go

deeper than a local congregation can.

00;23;08;02 - 00;23;10;19

But I also think, you know,

00;23;10;19 - 00;23;14;09

some parents are

they want their sons and daughters

00;23;14;09 - 00;23;18;04

to be formed as people of good

Christian character and value.

00;23;18;21 - 00;23;22;06

And they feel like, you know,

the role models that you will have

00;23;22;06 - 00;23;26;04

on the campus of Christian colleges

and universities, of faculty

00;23;26;04 - 00;23;30;25

and student life administrators

and others, will be the kinds of people

00;23;30;25 - 00;23;33;25

that they want to be, the examples

for their sons and daughters.

00;23;35;26 - 00;23;39;05

I think in a lot of countries,

an additional factor

00;23;39;05 - 00;23;43;27

which plays differently than it does

in the US is that in many countries

00;23;43;27 - 00;23;47;08

the public university system

is not very good academic.

00;23;48;19 - 00;23;51;29

And so

the Christian church and its related to

00;23;51;29 - 00;23;55;25

educational institutions

is seen as the place that you get the best

00;23;56;24 - 00;24;00;17

quality of education

that's attractive to people.

00;24;01;15 - 00;24;04;04

In many cases.

00;24;04;04 - 00;24;06;25

So lots of combined reasons

00;24;06;25 - 00;24;10;28

why people do that

and often parents can't pay for it.

00;24;10;29 - 00;24;14;21

So sometimes a lot of times

it's the 1819 year old saying,

00;24;15;06 - 00;24;20;14

I want to do this and I will get a job

so that I can afford to pay for it.

00;24;20;15 - 00;24;22;13

Sometimes they're gone for a semester too,

00;24;22;13 - 00;24;25;22

because they're working to raise money

so they can come back the next semester.

00;24;25;23 - 00;24;28;23

That's not uncommon. Yeah.

00;24;29;00 - 00;24;34;14

So a lot of the Christian colleges,

colleges and universities,

00;24;34;15 - 00;24;38;13

as you've noted,

have a strong applied orientation.

00;24;40;02 - 00;24;40;12

There.

00;24;40;12 - 00;24;44;29

They're, you know, focused on the trades,

I imagine computer programing,

00;24;45;00 - 00;24;48;20

things like this that I don't know

what the fields are, but business,

00;24;48;28 - 00;24;51;28

I imagine, you know,

we could look through a list of majors and

00;24;52;12 - 00;24;55;15

you would probably see

business and engineering

00;24;55;15 - 00;24;59;04

and some of those kinds of things before

you would see the arts and humanities.

00;25;00;11 - 00;25;01;29

Okay,

00;25;01;29 - 00;25;04;02

This where do the students go?

00;25;04;02 - 00;25;07;04

You know, did did the Christian colleges

and universities

00;25;07;04 - 00;25;10;10

have substantive arts and humanities

programs?

00;25;10;10 - 00;25;13;10

Do they do they not do that?

00;25;14;04 - 00;25;17;09

You know, where where does students

typically go after they graduate,

00;25;17;09 - 00;25;21;13

the kinds of jobs they take

or the the the degrees they pursue?

00;25;21;14 - 00;25;25;11

Just curious to hear a little bit

about the trajectory of of what happens.

00;25;25;11 - 00;25;27;19

Again, I'm going to ask you to generalize

and maybe maybe there's

00;25;27;19 - 00;25;31;15

a particular part of the world

or our country you'd like to zero in on

00;25;31;26 - 00;25;33;10

to kind of paint a picture of this.

00;25;33;10 - 00;25;36;09

But I'd love to kind of

think about students

00;25;37;24 - 00;25;41;18

in a different parts of the world

with respect to how it's different

00;25;41;18 - 00;25;46;07

or similar to what students do

this this side of the world.

00;25;47;16 - 00;25;48;24

Well, I'll give you

00;25;48;24 - 00;25;52;13

an interesting example

about this question of the balance

00;25;52;18 - 00;25;56;27

of applied study

versus liberal arts in India.

00;25;57;12 - 00;26;00;13

What's really fascinating in India

right now

00;26;00;13 - 00;26;04;09

is that a lot of these Christian colleges

started in very applied fields.

00;26;05;23 - 00;26;08;09

And now when they've come

00;26;08;09 - 00;26;11;28

to realize

is that if you're in applied field,

00;26;12;02 - 00;26;16;26

you still have to be able to

write, will speak well I think well,

00;26;18;07 - 00;26;21;03

and you've got to be able to rest

00;26;21;03 - 00;26;24;03

well and appreciate beauty

00;26;24;26 - 00;26;28;23

that these things are all important

in terms of someone being able

00;26;28;23 - 00;26;32;11

to build a life

where they can contribute appropriately.

00;26;32;25 - 00;26;37;13

So in India

right now, there's a big drive to enhance

00;26;37;13 - 00;26;42;11

and increase general education studies

in addition to the applied studies.

00;26;42;22 - 00;26;44;15

So it's almost as if

00;26;45;23 - 00;26;48;15

they're

backing into a model where the U.S.

00;26;48;15 - 00;26;52;00

is trending a little bit

in the other direction right now.

00;26;52;13 - 00;26;55;23

So it's quite interesting

to think about how

00;26;55;23 - 00;26;58;23

these things shift around the world.

00;26;58;23 - 00;27;02;08

I think we're all going to settle out

in some balance of general education

00;27;02;08 - 00;27;05;08

with applied study because we need both.

00;27;05;27 - 00;27;08;12

But, you know, where do people go?

00;27;08;12 - 00;27;11;17

Well, a lot of people do

stay in their home countries,

00;27;12;00 - 00;27;13;23

then that's good and right.

00;27;13;23 - 00;27;17;14

Because what we don't want to do

in Christian higher education is create

00;27;17;14 - 00;27;22;14

brain drain in areas of the world

which really, really need educated people.

00;27;23;09 - 00;27;23;27

Right?

00;27;23;27 - 00;27;28;15

So maybe they go to work in churches

and in government

00;27;28;20 - 00;27;33;09

and in education

as teachers, in social services.

00;27;33;22 - 00;27;36;22

I would say in developing countries,

00;27;36;26 - 00;27;42;25

because you don't have necessarily

all the structured employment options

00;27;42;26 - 00;27;47;00

you would hope for,

a lot of people become entrepreneurial

00;27;48;00 - 00;27;50;02

and open their own businesses.

00;27;50;02 - 00;27;55;10

That is not uncommon after you graduate

because that's the action in front of you

00;27;55;10 - 00;27;59;04

and you figure out something worthwhile

to do in your culture.

00;28;00;21 - 00;28;03;19

You know, in time, a number of students

00;28;03;19 - 00;28;06;20

do go on to advanced study, and

00;28;08;13 - 00;28;11;17

gratefully there are more Ph.D.

00;28;11;17 - 00;28;15;27

and MBA kinds of programs of quality

that are in their home countries

00;28;15;27 - 00;28;16;17

and regions.

00;28;16;17 - 00;28;20;09

So you don't necessarily

have to leave your continent to do that.

00;28;21;19 - 00;28;25;07

Or you may, you know, you may go

from Kenya to South Africa or something

00;28;25;07 - 00;28;28;11

like that, but you're not leaving

the African continent as a result.

00;28;28;24 - 00;28;33;04

But there still is a fair amount

at the graduate and professional level.

00;28;33;04 - 00;28;36;24

There's still a fair amount of cross

global kind of work.

00;28;37;03 - 00;28;41;18

So what's interesting

is that where people go

00;28;41;18 - 00;28;44;18

depends on global conditions.

00;28;44;22 - 00;28;48;23

So when the United States tightened up

immigration regulations

00;28;48;23 - 00;28;53;29

and was a less welcoming place

for international students, Chinese

00;28;53;29 - 00;28;56;29

students said, Well, we don't have to go

there, we'll go to Australia.

00;28;57;00 - 00;28;59;29

And they did in very large numbers.

00;28;59;29 - 00;29;02;18

And so student generations

00;29;02;18 - 00;29;05;18

flow depending on what conditions are.

00;29;05;23 - 00;29;09;10

Some of it has been very affected

by the relative tightness

00;29;09;10 - 00;29;13;21

of COVID regulations

over the last three years, done various.

00;29;14;26 - 00;29;15;25

Yeah, that's really helpful.

00;29;15;25 - 00;29;17;00

What about the faculty?

00;29;17;00 - 00;29;19;14

Where do the faculty come from?

00;29;19;14 - 00;29;21;11

Are they developed kind of homegrown?

00;29;21;11 - 00;29;22;27

Do they come from

different parts of the world?

00;29;22;27 - 00;29;24;29

What trends do you see there?

00;29;24;29 - 00;29;29;00

That I'd say

that is one of the biggest challenges

00;29;29;00 - 00;29;32;25

in these younger Christian

universities around the world is finding

00;29;32;25 - 00;29;35;25

and securing

and retaining qualified faculty

00;29;36;28 - 00;29;40;05

what many of them will do

as they as they are

00;29;40;05 - 00;29;43;05

beginning in their early years,

they will find

00;29;43;08 - 00;29;45;19

you know, three or four really strong

anchor

00;29;45;19 - 00;29;49;18

people who are deeply committed

to Christian faith

00;29;50;00 - 00;29;53;08

and our strong senior wise leaders.

00;29;55;01 - 00;29;58;17

And then from there to

to find faculty in all these fields,

00;29;59;07 - 00;30;02;05

you find a lot of people crossovers

during the day.

00;30;02;05 - 00;30;05;27

They teach in public universities

and then they teach a night course or two.

00;30;05;27 - 00;30;07;10

In the Christian University,

00;30;08;20 - 00;30;11;01

you'll find people who span more than one

00;30;11;01 - 00;30;14;00

Christian university

and teach in a couple different ones.

00;30;14;26 - 00;30;16;29

And and, you know,

00;30;16;29 - 00;30;19;29

some of these universities

also send people off

00;30;20;13 - 00;30;23;01

to advanced study with the intention

00;30;23;01 - 00;30;26;08

that they will come back

and serve in their universities.

00;30;26;27 - 00;30;29;26

But it it's a major challenge.

00;30;29;26 - 00;30;33;00

I think one of the ways

one of the things that helped

00;30;33;15 - 00;30;36;15

is some North American

00;30;36;26 - 00;30;41;00

colleges and universities

actually are aware of the challenge

00;30;41;00 - 00;30;44;05

and they will, in effect, loan faculty

00;30;44;15 - 00;30;47;06

to teach at other places

00;30;47;06 - 00;30;50;07

for short periods of time with a way.

00;30;50;07 - 00;30;55;10

LTC International University in Lithuania

has a number of North American faculty

00;30;55;10 - 00;31;00;08

who are there and teach for a year or two

do have a wonderful experience there.

00;31;00;08 - 00;31;03;08

It's just tremendous.

00;31;04;02 - 00;31;07;07

But then they go back to a home base,

often elsewhere.

00;31;07;07 - 00;31;09;15

Some stay longer term.

00;31;09;15 - 00;31;12;17

When I taught in Russia

in the summer of 2004,

00;31;13;00 - 00;31;17;26

that was supported by a donor

to the Calvin University

00;31;19;03 - 00;31;22;29

who believed that it was important for

faculty to get international experience.

00;31;22;29 - 00;31;26;16

And it was a wonderful short term

teaching experience,

00;31;26;16 - 00;31;29;16

which I still value.

00;31;29;16 - 00;31;32;05

Yeah, and that opens

00;31;32;05 - 00;31;35;14

the door to a question I've had,

and that is the relationship

00;31;35;14 - 00;31;38;25

between North American Christian colleges

and universities in some of these

00;31;38;25 - 00;31;42;08

emerging Christian colleges

and universities around the world.

00;31;42;12 - 00;31;43;14

In what ways are they partnering?

00;31;43;14 - 00;31;45;09

It sounds like they're doing some faculty

exchange.

00;31;45;09 - 00;31;47;21

Are there

other ways that you see partnership

00;31;47;21 - 00;31;50;14

or maybe a particular example

that's just a role?

00;31;50;14 - 00;31;53;14

Yeah, exemplar in this world.

00;31;54;08 - 00;31;58;09

You know, for one thing,

there are all kinds of student

00;31;58;09 - 00;32;01;11

semester exchange programs. I

00;32;02;07 - 00;32;05;16

it does not do that work

because the institutions themselves

00;32;05;16 - 00;32;07;02

do it so well at this point.

00;32;08;07 - 00;32;09;01

But most

00;32;09;01 - 00;32;14;24

colleges or universities have some kinds

of exchange partnerships with areas

00;32;14;24 - 00;32;19;29

around the world and specific partners

they've come to rely on come to know.

00;32;19;29 - 00;32;24;11

They know families who have students

who have done it for 15, 20 years.

00;32;25;17 - 00;32;30;25

And what's interesting as well is that

I think when we have student semester

00;32;30;25 - 00;32;34;09

exchanges, you see more crossover

among theological traditions.

00;32;35;07 - 00;32;37;18

So you really find Protestant colleges

00;32;37;18 - 00;32;40;17

and universities that are partnering up

with Catholic universities

00;32;40;17 - 00;32;43;17

in some areas of the world

because they think it's the best match.

00;32;44;14 - 00;32;47;13

And and that's pretty healthy.

00;32;47;13 - 00;32;49;00

So there's a lot of student exchange.

00;32;49;00 - 00;32;52;00

I think, of faculty

00;32;52;20 - 00;32;54;01

partnerships.

00;32;54;01 - 00;32;57;18

There are some limited faculty

partnerships related to research and

00;32;57;18 - 00;32;59;09

scholarship.

00;32;59;09 - 00;33;02;02

And that's one of the things

we try to help happen.

00;33;02;02 - 00;33;04;06

The Fulbright Organization

00;33;04;06 - 00;33;08;02

with their faculty Fulbright Awards

is very helpful in that regard.

00;33;08;02 - 00;33;11;05

So yeah, I know of a Calvin University

professor

00;33;11;05 - 00;33;15;27

who was able to go to Nigeria,

to her home country, so she had him.

00;33;16;03 - 00;33;17;27

I don't think it was Fulbright,

I think it was Carnegie,

00;33;17;27 - 00;33;21;20

but she had an award to spend some time

there with the people working with them,

00;33;21;20 - 00;33;24;21

and then they visited

back in the United States.

00;33;25;27 - 00;33;28;27

So those kinds of things are very helpful.

00;33;29;00 - 00;33;31;22

But we do need a lot more research

to be done.

00;33;31;22 - 00;33;34;28

Things like climate change

don't stay in anybody's backyard.

00;33;35;16 - 00;33;37;10

They affect all of us all the time.

00;33;37;10 - 00;33;41;12

So we need to be doing global projects

together.

00;33;42;12 - 00;33;44;16

Yeah, it sounds like

there are lots of opportunities there

00;33;44;16 - 00;33;46;15

and some really good examples.

00;33;46;15 - 00;33;49;27

We talked a little bit about economics

and I imagine there's

00;33;50;15 - 00;33;53;20

a lot of North American

Christian colleges and universities

00;33;53;20 - 00;33;57;29

that would love to recruit

promising international students

00;33;57;29 - 00;33;59;22

and some of these younger

00;33;59;22 - 00;34;03;10

Christian colleges and universities

and established ones around the world

00;34;03;17 - 00;34;08;07

would love to retain those students

in their respective countries.

00;34;08;22 - 00;34;11;02

I'd love to hear.

00;34;11;02 - 00;34;11;20

Yeah.

00;34;11;20 - 00;34;15;12

And and the North American colleges

and universities can offer,

00;34;15;12 - 00;34;19;00

you know, significant financial aid, aid,

scholarships, things like that.

00;34;20;02 - 00;34;22;05

What are the economic models

00;34;22;05 - 00;34;27;23

and sort of the pressure points

that students encounter

00;34;27;23 - 00;34;30;23

and have to overcome

in different parts of the world?

00;34;31;28 - 00;34;34;20

So it'd be interesting to explore

that from a student perspective.

00;34;34;20 - 00;34;37;20

And then, you know,

I want to up with some questions around

00;34;37;25 - 00;34;41;08

the organizational perspective,

but what challenges do students face?

00;34;42;20 - 00;34;44;12

You know, the biggest

00;34;44;12 - 00;34;47;21

challenge for students is

how do you pay for it, right?

00;34;48;01 - 00;34;53;00

Because many times students in

other countries beyond the United States,

00;34;54;01 - 00;34;56;25

they don't

they don't have governmental financial aid

00;34;56;25 - 00;35;00;03

that can follow them

no matter where they go in the world.

00;35;00;03 - 00;35;04;02

Now, the UK is building a new system

for that called

00;35;04;02 - 00;35;07;18

the Turing system, which I think

would be better than what they did before.

00;35;08;02 - 00;35;12;09

And you do find an exchange

among the EU countries

00;35;12;28 - 00;35;15;15

through the Erasmus scholarship system

00;35;15;15 - 00;35;18;15

which helps them to exchange student

so they help each other.

00;35;18;22 - 00;35;22;28

But still in the majority world,

the big question is how?

00;35;23;01 - 00;35;26;02

How does a student from Brazil

who wants to attend

00;35;26;02 - 00;35;28;04

a college in the United

States, how do you pay for it

00;35;29;03 - 00;35;31;03

when you

don't have any federal financial aid?

00;35;31;03 - 00;35;34;02

Then it's all family resources.

00;35;34;02 - 00;35;36;20

So if you're from a well-to-do new family

00;35;36;20 - 00;35;39;20

that can afford it, they pay.

00;35;39;26 - 00;35;43;24

And if you're not,

you don't see an easy way to do this.

00;35;44;10 - 00;35;49;10

So Christian colleges and universities

in the United States

00;35;50;01 - 00;35;55;00

try to be responsive,

and many of them do have scholarships

00;35;55;14 - 00;35;59;21

to help students from other areas

because they think it's really healthy

00;36;00;17 - 00;36;04;11

for any student body

to have some international students in it

00;36;04;28 - 00;36;08;28

to to open up our perspectives on

what does it mean to be Christian.

00;36;08;28 - 00;36;10;27

It's not just all about your country.

00;36;10;27 - 00;36;13;27

It's about, you know, God's work

in the whole of the world.

00;36;14;13 - 00;36;17;29

So so that's important to them.

00;36;17;29 - 00;36;22;05

And so they do have scholarships,

many funded by donors

00;36;22;05 - 00;36;25;05

who over time

have a heart for the same thing.

00;36;25;05 - 00;36;28;15

Often the scholarship will pay

maybe half of the cost,

00;36;28;29 - 00;36;31;29

but the student still has to come up

with the other half.

00;36;32;03 - 00;36;33;15

So it's a huge challenge.

00;36;34;21 - 00;36;34;29

It's a

00;36;34;29 - 00;36;37;29

huge challenge to be able to study

in the United States.

00;36;38;06 - 00;36;42;07

And of course, they don't even have access

in many cases to things like student

00;36;42;07 - 00;36;45;13

loan programs that American students have

00;36;45;18 - 00;36;48;13

access to. Now.

00;36;48;13 - 00;36;49;29

So huge prices

00;36;49;29 - 00;36;52;29

on the part of families

say, to help that happen.

00;36;53;11 - 00;36;56;11

Yeah, it sounds like

what are the institutions do?

00;36;56;14 - 00;37;00;04

They don't have government assistance,

do they?

00;37;01;20 - 00;37;04;02

Do they rely on individual benefactors?

00;37;04;02 - 00;37;05;16

Are these

00;37;05;16 - 00;37;08;16

universities and colleges

mostly tuition driven?

00;37;09;07 - 00;37;10;09

How do they make it work?

00;37;10;09 - 00;37;12;13

What are the models

that you have seen out there?

00;37;12;13 - 00;37;14;17

And what

00;37;14;17 - 00;37;16;13

what seems to be successful,

00;37;16;13 - 00;37;19;13

particularly

with these with some of the emerging

00;37;19;13 - 00;37;22;13

colleges and universities

that are trying to get their footing?

00;37;22;27 - 00;37;25;27

These

these are mostly tuition based models

00;37;26;14 - 00;37;30;07

that this is students and parents pay

00;37;30;29 - 00;37;34;12

a faculty salaries are very modest.

00;37;35;16 - 00;37;38;16

People work incredibly hard

00;37;38;23 - 00;37;42;12

with high teaching loads

because they're dedicated a cause.

00;37;43;08 - 00;37;46;07

And the university

hopes and prays and plans

00;37;46;07 - 00;37;49;06

that its budget holds

together year to year.

00;37;50;02 - 00;37;50;25

Right.

00;37;50;25 - 00;37;53;08

And that's how it gradually develops.

00;37;53;08 - 00;37;58;24

And there's there's

a lot of faith out there

00;37;58;24 - 00;38;04;13

in in very big ways as these institutions

stretch themselves in the future.

00;38;04;13 - 00;38;07;29

I when I was in Uganda

and I talked to the people there,

00;38;08;00 - 00;38;11;03

they said we at Uganda

Christian University,

00;38;11;03 - 00;38;14;14

which is Anglican and its basis,

they said, well,

00;38;15;10 - 00;38;19;04

we weren't sure how we were going to fund

a medical and dental school,

00;38;20;00 - 00;38;23;19

but we knew our country needed one

and we felt called to do it.

00;38;23;22 - 00;38;25;07

So we did it.

00;38;25;07 - 00;38;28;05

And you go, Oh my goodness,

00;38;28;05 - 00;38;30;19

But they work to figure it out.

00;38;30;19 - 00;38;32;22

But it's, you know, it's a big challenge

00;38;33;26 - 00;38;36;07

because you don't have

00;38;36;07 - 00;38;40;08

the kind of cultivated networks of donors

that you have longstanding in the US.

00;38;40;08 - 00;38;43;26

You don't have the foundation structure

where you can go to private foundation,

00;38;43;27 - 00;38;44;20

ask for grants.

00;38;44;20 - 00;38;47;09

That's not nearly as common around

most of the world.

00;38;47;09 - 00;38;48;02

Yeah, yeah.

00;38;48;02 - 00;38;50;20

It's really a unique situation

we have here.

00;38;50;20 - 00;38;54;06

The models

I know the models or delivery mechanisms

00;38;54;22 - 00;38;57;11

play a big role in cost,

00;38;57;11 - 00;39;00;13

you know, virtual versus in-person.

00;39;01;17 - 00;39;03;25

What are what models

00;39;03;25 - 00;39;06;25

do you see out There is a kind of a mix

00;39;07;02 - 00;39;09;25

from traditional campuses where students

00;39;09;25 - 00;39;12;25

live on campus to hybrid model

00;39;13;01 - 00;39;17;03

commute, commuter models, where students

come in for the day and leave.

00;39;17;03 - 00;39;21;13

And so universities don't need to create

all the infrastructure to virtual models.

00;39;21;13 - 00;39;22;11

What do you see out there?

00;39;22;11 - 00;39;24;27

And again,

I'm asking you to to generalize, but

00;39;26;05 - 00;39;28;23

it'd be really interested to know if it

in some ways

00;39;28;23 - 00;39;32;15

reflects the range of possibilities

we have in North America.

00;39;34;09 - 00;39;36;28

I would say this about models,

00;39;36;28 - 00;39;40;26

and most of the models

that encountered are campus based,

00;39;42;20 - 00;39;44;06

but not all of the campus

00;39;44;06 - 00;39;47;12

based models include residential housing

00;39;47;22 - 00;39;51;19

that's very common in Christian colleges

and universities in United States.

00;39;52;14 - 00;39;55;14

It's uncommon in the rest of the world.

00;39;55;22 - 00;40;00;04

You know, students expect to go home

at night and live with their families

00;40;00;18 - 00;40;03;20

or live in a neighborhood

00;40;04;06 - 00;40;08;24

with a family there as the basis

for going to the university.

00;40;09;10 - 00;40;13;09

But residential

housing on campuses is more rare.

00;40;14;02 - 00;40;16;15

But here's the big thing.

00;40;16;15 - 00;40;19;15

The pandemic changed everything.

00;40;19;23 - 00;40;20;27

Interesting.

00;40;20;27 - 00;40;24;18

Because when you have a campus

based management model,

00;40;24;22 - 00;40;29;03

just like in the U.S., well,

and nobody can be on campus

00;40;29;03 - 00;40;33;19

because the virus spread and fear of it

and everybody has to go home.

00;40;34;24 - 00;40;37;10

Well, what do you do?

00;40;37;10 - 00;40;40;22

Virtually

anybody who could figure anything out

00;40;41;19 - 00;40;44;18

when online in some way

00;40;44;20 - 00;40;47;04

and even I have

00;40;47;04 - 00;40;50;29

we have a small Bible college

in eastern Uganda that's in our network.

00;40;51;25 - 00;40;55;22

And and I know they don't have much

of a technological infrastructure.

00;40;55;22 - 00;40;58;18

And they said we're open

and we're teaching.

00;40;58;18 - 00;41;01;13

And I said, Pastor Moses,

00;41;01;13 - 00;41;02;26

how are you doing this?

00;41;02;26 - 00;41;05;26

And he said, Well, we have phones.

00;41;06;20 - 00;41;11;00

So they were downloading

all their lessons, all their teaching

00;41;11;10 - 00;41;16;02

to people's phones, and that's

what they did during the pandemic.

00;41;16;08 - 00;41;20;14

So I think on this side, as we graduate,

as the pandemic,

00;41;20;14 - 00;41;24;21

gradually recedes around the world

and we find our way,

00;41;25;10 - 00;41;29;06

now, you see much more

because these these universities,

00;41;29;06 - 00;41;34;00

they had to upgrade their i.t

infrastructures just to do anything.

00;41;34;02 - 00;41;35;13

They had to do something

00;41;35;13 - 00;41;38;22

and they had been working on it

and they realize it's a priority.

00;41;39;07 - 00;41;43;00

So now there's much more experimentation

00;41;43;13 - 00;41;46;01

with combination programs

00;41;46;01 - 00;41;51;16

that are some residential

in person with some

00;41;52;29 - 00;41;54;02

computer.

00;41;54;02 - 00;41;57;03

I know one place in South Africa

00;41;57;15 - 00;42;00;08

that's trying to educate

Christian teachers

00;42;00;08 - 00;42;05;17

and they've created a second program

where students, mostly from rural areas,

00;42;05;17 - 00;42;07;25

are homesteading

a good share of the wheat,

00;42;07;25 - 00;42;11;13

but then they come into their campus

for these intensive in-person

00;42;11;13 - 00;42;15;27

weekend occasions because they still think

the in-person is important.

00;42;16;15 - 00;42;17;14

But how do you do it?

00;42;17;14 - 00;42;21;18

And when you do it and the balance

is different now after the pandemic.

00;42;23;01 - 00;42;24;07

So has so helpful.

00;42;24;07 - 00;42;26;05

And it it raises another question for me.

00;42;26;05 - 00;42;30;06

In the North American model, there are

so many extracurricular co-curricular

00;42;31;12 - 00;42;34;00

opportunities,

and I think a lot of these institutions

00;42;34;00 - 00;42;37;01

see that is really important formative

00;42;38;10 - 00;42;42;11

components of what it means

to get a Christian education, too.

00;42;42;29 - 00;42;45;14

And it sounds like

00;42;45;14 - 00;42;48;00

in other parts of the world, because of

00;42;49;01 - 00;42;49;15

lack of

00;42;49;15 - 00;42;50;20

infrastructure or

00;42;50;20 - 00;42;55;04

just the dynamics of an urban setting

or whatever it is, rural setting,

00;42;55;17 - 00;42;58;22

some of this can be really challenging

that it's a model that

00;42;58;29 - 00;43;03;11

doesn't lean as heavily

on the extracurricular and co-curricular,

00;43;03;11 - 00;43;06;11

and maybe there just isn't the margin

to do that.

00;43;06;22 - 00;43;10;06

But I'm curious, are some

are you starting to see

00;43;10;06 - 00;43;13;06

some Christian colleges

in other parts of the world

00;43;14;06 - 00;43;16;29

move in the direction of

00;43;16;29 - 00;43;19;29

co-curricular extracurricular,

00;43;21;20 - 00;43;23;15

formative kinds of experiences

00;43;23;15 - 00;43;27;07

that that look more typical

to the American model?

00;43;28;28 - 00;43;30;25

I think

00;43;30;25 - 00;43;32;28

there, is some movement in that direction.

00;43;32;28 - 00;43;36;06

I think a lot of the

the colleges and universities

00;43;36;06 - 00;43;39;06

I work with have some sports programs

00;43;40;03 - 00;43;41;25

sometimes are clubs, sports.

00;43;41;25 - 00;43;45;13

But of course, around the world,

for example, soccer is everywhere.

00;43;46;08 - 00;43;49;26

And soccer as a sport

doesn't have to be that expensive.

00;43;51;00 - 00;43;53;08

So so, you know, they they

00;43;53;08 - 00;43;57;17

lean toward sports opportunities

that are less expensive

00;43;58;22 - 00;43;59;16

for the students.

00;43;59;16 - 00;44;04;06

So they, you know, they don't have quite

the equipment costs or the infrastructure

00;44;04;06 - 00;44;07;06

costs of building big stadiums

or things like that.

00;44;07;16 - 00;44;12;07

But but they think that there is value

from what students learn from team sports.

00;44;12;21 - 00;44;16;28

So so you do see them

and you do see competitive clubs

00;44;16;29 - 00;44;21;06

of of things like soccer

and other sports around the world.

00;44;21;16 - 00;44;25;14

The variety depends on

I mean, you see cricket in some places and

00;44;25;15 - 00;44;29;27

and tennis and others and but it's there

00;44;30;18 - 00;44;34;06

but they do realize

I don't think there is many in most places

00;44;34;06 - 00;44;37;29

because many students do need to work

part of the time

00;44;38;11 - 00;44;41;27

to make money

to afford the tuition, to pay the tuition.

00;44;42;24 - 00;44;46;15

So so it's a it's

a little different balance, but it's not

00;44;46;22 - 00;44;52;11

these are not sterile environment

that people just come and go there.

00;44;52;15 - 00;44;56;20

There are clubs, their communities,

there are student organizations,

00;44;57;20 - 00;44;58;08

there are

00;44;58;08 - 00;45;02;00

you know, there are small coffee shops

and gathering places for lunch

00;45;02;27 - 00;45;06;01

that where there's a real social life,

where people are making

00;45;06;01 - 00;45;09;25

friends and lifelong,

you know, acquaintances.

00;45;10;14 - 00;45;11;11

Yeah, Well, that's

00;45;11;11 - 00;45;14;19

I you've painted a really vivid picture

of that As you walk around these places

00;45;14;23 - 00;45;17;23

in different parts of the world,

you see those kinds of interactions.

00;45;18;24 - 00;45;22;09

Students together,

you know, doing a lot of the things

00;45;22;09 - 00;45;23;15

that college students do right.

00;45;23;15 - 00;45;27;03

They forming friendships

that really do last a lifetime.

00;45;27;21 - 00;45;29;29

Surely you're a management

00;45;29;29 - 00;45;31;03

theorist.

00;45;31;03 - 00;45;34;03

If you had to sort of describe the growth

curve

00;45;34;06 - 00;45;37;06

of global Christian education,

00;45;38;22 - 00;45;40;04

how would you describe the curve?

00;45;40;04 - 00;45;43;22

Where is it in in its lifecycle?

00;45;46;05 - 00;45;49;05

I think it depends on what continent

you're part of.

00;45;49;15 - 00;45;50;06

Okay. Yeah.

00;45;50;06 - 00;45;55;01

And and it also depends on what

your vision for Christian education is.

00;45;55;18 - 00;45;58;26

If you think that Christian education

is primarily

00;45;58;26 - 00;46;02;06

focused on 18 year olds and 19 year old

00;46;03;08 - 00;46;06;08

emerging adults, then

00;46;06;25 - 00;46;09;11

Europe and North

00;46;09;11 - 00;46;12;11

America are not growth markets

00;46;12;16 - 00;46;15;00

because, you know, birthrates have fallen.

00;46;15;00 - 00;46;18;17

We already know that babies

that weren't born,

00;46;18;25 - 00;46;23;05

you know, 17, 18 years ago

are not going to be going to college in.

00;46;23;09 - 00;46;24;18

The that's right.

00;46;24;18 - 00;46;26;13

20 years from now.

00;46;26;13 - 00;46;28;01

Right.

00;46;28;01 - 00;46;30;14

But that assumes your only idea

00;46;30;14 - 00;46;34;11

is that that this kind of education

is for people who are 18 or 19.

00;46;35;00 - 00;46;38;00

You know,

there are some institutions who have said

00;46;38;05 - 00;46;42;00

there are multiple phases of life where

Christian education is really important

00;46;42;16 - 00;46;47;03

and they vary, invented themselves

to offer education to people in

00;46;47;03 - 00;46;51;04

their thirties and forties who are focused

on building professional knowledge,

00;46;51;21 - 00;46;55;02

and then people who are older who say,

00;46;55;20 - 00;46;59;20

I really want to take a pottery class

and I'm 65 and I can do it now.

00;46;59;28 - 00;47;02;27

And they want to go back

to a Christian college to do it.

00;47;02;27 - 00;47;06;02

So it depends on

how many different, you know,

00;47;07;09 - 00;47;10;03

people in different stages of life

you think it's about.

00;47;10;03 - 00;47;13;03

But if I had to think about the growth

curve

00;47;13;28 - 00;47;16;24

in the global South and East,

00;47;16;24 - 00;47;19;24

it is going to be huge.

00;47;19;29 - 00;47;25;06

I believe that 50%

or more of the African subsaharan

00;47;25;06 - 00;47;28;19

population is under the age of 18.

00;47;29;15 - 00;47;32;21

I mean, there are countries

where the average age is only in the

00;47;32;21 - 00;47;37;01

early thirties because there are so many

more children than had been born.

00;47;37;14 - 00;47;41;20

And with the increases

in the quality of global health care,

00;47;42;21 - 00;47;45;21

a family

that used to have four or five children

00;47;45;21 - 00;47;48;20

and have a couple of them die

before they were five years old.

00;47;48;20 - 00;47;52;06

Now these children live

and they're growing up and there are

00;47;52;27 - 00;47;55;07

millions of them

00;47;55;07 - 00;47;57;17

that are going to seek education.

00;47;57;17 - 00;48;00;05

So, you know, the opportunities in

00;48;00;05 - 00;48;03;16

some areas of the world are huge.

00;48;03;16 - 00;48;09;20

In places like Indonesia and India,

where populations are growing.

00;48;09;20 - 00;48;12;14

Pakistan has a huge population.

00;48;13;21 - 00;48;15;24

sub-Saharan Africa,

00;48;15;24 - 00;48;18;05

when you think about where they are

in the life

00;48;18;05 - 00;48;22;01

lifecycle of Christian higher education,

they are very young.

00;48;22;03 - 00;48;23;03

And that.

00;48;23;03 - 00;48;25;19

Yeah, so surely just scale that.

00;48;25;19 - 00;48;28;23

I just I want that to sink in because,

00;48;30;05 - 00;48;33;29

you know, these kids

who might have otherwise perished due

00;48;33;29 - 00;48;38;03

to disease, lack of nutrition or water,

they're not growing up healthy

00;48;38;17 - 00;48;41;17

because of advances in medicine and

00;48;42;07 - 00;48;44;15

other kinds of,

00;48;44;15 - 00;48;47;15

you know, health, hygiene kinds of things.

00;48;48;13 - 00;48;49;09

Just scale it.

00;48;49;09 - 00;48;52;02

Like how how many

00;48;52;02 - 00;48;54;28

Christian can't you just

you know, how many Christian colleges

00;48;54;28 - 00;48;57;29

could a place like Uganda host

00;48;59;18 - 00;49;01;08

or Kenya just

00;49;01;08 - 00;49;04;15

you know, as one example, you know,

could there be thousands

00;49;05;05 - 00;49;08;09

of these institutions

in a place like that?

00;49;09;26 - 00;49;10;20

Yeah.

00;49;10;20 - 00;49;16;00

Again,

it's it's a very context specific answer.

00;49;16;25 - 00;49;19;14

For example, in Kenya,

00;49;19;14 - 00;49;23;18

there was a huge growth

in the Christian colleges

00;49;24;01 - 00;49;27;17

between about 2000 and

00;49;28;04 - 00;49;30;20

2017, 18,

00;49;31;21 - 00;49;32;12

because there

00;49;32;12 - 00;49;35;15

was this mentality

that every child growing up

00;49;35;15 - 00;49;39;10

should go into higher education

and should be allowed.

00;49;40;02 - 00;49;43;02

And then the Kenyan government

looked at what they were doing

00;49;43;02 - 00;49;46;02

and how much it was costing and said,

you know what,

00;49;46;09 - 00;49;48;23

We have to raise the level

00;49;48;23 - 00;49;51;28

of the qualifying scores on

00;49;53;00 - 00;49;57;24

12th grade examinations that qualify

people to go to any university.

00;49;58;12 - 00;49;59;18

And they did.

00;49;59;18 - 00;50;03;19

And it cut the population of people

who could go to a university in half.

00;50;04;00 - 00;50;05;03

Right.

00;50;05;03 - 00;50;09;27

So you can look at the big picture

and say, oh, there's all these people.

00;50;10;13 - 00;50;13;21

But it also depends on how specific

countries

00;50;14;21 - 00;50;17;20

regulate and structure their systems

00;50;17;20 - 00;50;21;24

in terms of

who is eligible for higher education.

00;50;21;24 - 00;50;24;24

And it also depends on

00;50;25;15 - 00;50;28;15

what people can afford

and how you finance.

00;50;28;16 - 00;50;32;03

And so, yeah, financially

healthy countries are going

00;50;32;03 - 00;50;36;08

to have many more people pursuing

Christian higher education

00;50;36;25 - 00;50;39;28

than countries

that are in economic trouble.

00;50;40;13 - 00;50;41;29

Yeah, it's really complex.

00;50;41;29 - 00;50;44;04

It's sounds like it.

00;50;44;04 - 00;50;47;03

You know, one of the things

that we didn't talk about accreditation

00;50;47;03 - 00;50;50;13

standards, I imagine that that's something

that's starting to emerge as well.

00;50;50;13 - 00;50;54;09

Are you starting to see

that become more central in some of

00;50;54;15 - 00;50;56;14

in some of these countries

and. Regions of the. Oh, yeah.

00;50;57;14 - 00;50;59;02

Most most of these countries

00;50;59;02 - 00;51;02;28

realize that they have to have some kind

of an accrediting structure.

00;51;03;07 - 00;51;03;18

Yeah.

00;51;03;18 - 00;51;06;18

To have quality results

00;51;06;20 - 00;51;09;16

and they're serious about it.

00;51;09;16 - 00;51;13;12

So, you know, it's it's varied

and you have to try to figure it out.

00;51;13;12 - 00;51;18;22

And every country has its own system

and you have to try to learn as you go.

00;51;19;00 - 00;51;22;19

But in our network, for example,

you can only be influenced to, to

00;51;22;21 - 00;51;25;21

remember

if you are a nationally accredited

00;51;25;28 - 00;51;28;23

because we at least see that as one screen

00;51;28;23 - 00;51;31;23

of control related to quality.

00;51;32;01 - 00;51;34;25

You can be an affiliate member

of our network and we'll help you

00;51;34;25 - 00;51;36;08

if you're not yet accredited.

00;51;36;08 - 00;51;39;22

But to be a full institutional member,

you need to be accredited.

00;51;40;02 - 00;51;43;18

But most countries realize

that accreditation

00;51;43;18 - 00;51;47;20

is a means to be helpful

in settings and standards

00;51;47;20 - 00;51;53;02

and having institutions

rise to the standard so they work at.

00;51;55;05 - 00;51;55;27

I want to start

00;51;55;27 - 00;51;59;08

moving our conversation to a conclusion.

00;51;59;19 - 00;52;02;16

I'm going to ask this this question

in the form of in

00;52;02;16 - 00;52;05;16

some ways it's kind of a prayer request.

00;52;05;16 - 00;52;08;13

But what you know,

you've painted a picture of

00;52;08;13 - 00;52;11;17

of opportunities and challenges

and you've done

00;52;11;17 - 00;52;14;17

so vividly.

00;52;14;23 - 00;52;17;13

What's the key thing

00;52;17;13 - 00;52;20;13

that you hope our listeners

00;52;20;14 - 00;52;23;14

take away, particularly

00;52;23;26 - 00;52;26;11

in the possibilities?

00;52;26;11 - 00;52;29;18

I'd love to hear you

sort of respond to that.

00;52;29;18 - 00;52;33;07

And then how can

how can for those who care

00;52;33;07 - 00;52;36;26

about Christian education and care

about different parts of the world,

00;52;37;05 - 00;52;40;05

what's a practical way

that somebody could get involved?

00;52;44;22 - 00;52;46;29

I think

00;52;46;29 - 00;52;49;29

one of the things to pray about

00;52;50;11 - 00;52;52;03

is that

00;52;52;03 - 00;52;55;03

nations that really need

00;52;55;05 - 00;52;58;25

Christian higher education are open to it.

00;53;03;05 - 00;53;04;21

You know,

00;53;04;21 - 00;53;08;24

nations have different systems

of openness to Christianity,

00;53;10;06 - 00;53;13;15

but you

do sometimes see remarkable changes

00;53;14;16 - 00;53;16;19

in Pakistan right now,

00;53;16;19 - 00;53;19;19

where Christians are about

5% of the population.

00;53;20;10 - 00;53;24;20

There's a new openness

to a Christian university

00;53;26;04 - 00;53;28;11

supported by Korean missionaries

00;53;28;11 - 00;53;31;02

that you think could this come from.

00;53;31;02 - 00;53;34;02

And somehow in the Pakistani government,

00;53;34;09 - 00;53;37;05

all of a sudden it seemed like a good idea

00;53;37;05 - 00;53;40;05

to pray for places like that.

00;53;40;16 - 00;53;43;16

And and I would say, you know,

we can't all do everything

00;53;44;12 - 00;53;48;10

but find a place,

a region of the world in the country.

00;53;48;24 - 00;53;52;01

And particularly institutions

that you care about.

00;53;52;25 - 00;53;55;20

And many of these

00;53;55;20 - 00;53;59;10

institutions have partnership

funds in the United States

00;53;59;10 - 00;54;04;08

to which you can contribute very easily

with a standard U.S.

00;54;04;08 - 00;54;08;25

tax deduction for a donation,

and you can help to support them

00;54;08;25 - 00;54;11;25

and their work by contributing

00;54;11;26 - 00;54;15;20

to that work through a US

partnership fund that they host here.

00;54;16;29 - 00;54;19;06

And I would encourage you to do so.

00;54;19;06 - 00;54;23;09

It's amazing what a difference

a few hundred dollars can make

00;54;23;25 - 00;54;26;25

in many areas of the world.

00;54;27;07 - 00;54;31;10

And sometimes it's the money

and sometimes it's the it's the message

00;54;31;10 - 00;54;36;13

that the money sends, which is we

are with you, we are Christians with you

00;54;36;13 - 00;54;41;25

who care about the education information

of your children as Christians.

00;54;42;08 - 00;54;45;21

And we are with you from North America

to wherever you are.

00;54;46;04 - 00;54;47;29

You're not alone.

00;54;47;29 - 00;54;50;04

Yeah, that's that's so helpful.

00;54;50;04 - 00;54;51;04

Well, well said.

00;54;51;04 - 00;54;56;00

And we will put in the show

notes, contact information

00;54;56;00 - 00;54;59;19

for Shirley in the international network

for Christian Higher Education.

00;54;59;19 - 00;55;03;03

Insch is an institution that is working

00;55;03;27 - 00;55;06;27

at the forefront of all these issues, and

00;55;07;06 - 00;55;09;17

that's a place people can give as well.

00;55;09;17 - 00;55;11;24

Right. And directory sources, certainly.

00;55;11;24 - 00;55;14;07

We accept donations, no question. So

00;55;15;15 - 00;55;16;12

so that's great.

00;55;16;12 - 00;55;20;10

And you can also I know your organization

can also address questions for those

00;55;20;10 - 00;55;22;11

who might be motivated to get involved

00;55;22;11 - 00;55;26;07

and wonder how to take a next step

in a particular region of the world.

00;55;26;07 - 00;55;28;06

So that's really helpful.

00;55;28;06 - 00;55;31;17

Shirley, as we begin

as we wrap here, I'd love to hear

00;55;32;12 - 00;55;34;16

I know you have your hands in

lots of different things.

00;55;34;16 - 00;55;36;23

Is there something you're working on

right now

00;55;36;23 - 00;55;38;12

that you're just really excited about?

00;55;38;12 - 00;55;41;12

I know you've

you know, you're an author and

00;55;42;01 - 00;55;45;01

you bring a lot of expertise

to organizational leadership.

00;55;46;10 - 00;55;49;19

It might be to your work with NIH,

something else you're working on.

00;55;49;19 - 00;55;53;00

But what do you what are you working on

these days that has you really excited?

00;55;53;09 - 00;55;57;06

Maybe it's a new angle

or fresh angle on some of your work

00;55;57;06 - 00;55;58;29

that you've been committed

to for so many years?

00;56;01;06 - 00;56;03;11

One of

the things that I keep working on it

00;56;03;11 - 00;56;06;23

got a little stalled during

the pandemic is

00;56;06;23 - 00;56;09;23

I am really trying to get our network

00;56;10;06 - 00;56;15;08

to create a small scale seminar

00;56;16;06 - 00;56;19;05

for senior leaders

00;56;19;15 - 00;56;24;01

who teach business

in their Christian universities

00;56;24;29 - 00;56;29;17

to think deeply

about how faith and theology ought

00;56;29;19 - 00;56;35;17

to connect with the goals, the structures,

the practices, the ethics of business.

00;56;35;17 - 00;56;39;01

That brings me all the way back

to my teaching field where I started.

00;56;39;20 - 00;56;43;15

But I just think

one of the things that we are really needs

00;56;44;03 - 00;56;47;11

is ethical Christian business leaders.

00;56;47;25 - 00;56;52;27

And if we can create a seminar

where we teach the teachers who then teach

00;56;52;27 - 00;56;56;18

the students, maybe we will have added

something that the world really needs.

00;56;56;18 - 00;56;59;17

So that's that's one thing

I spent time on this morning.

00;56;59;22 - 00;57;03;27

I was thinking about my strategy for that,

where we would host who would be part of

00;57;03;27 - 00;57;07;01

it started to make a list of people

we might invite.

00;57;07;19 - 00;57;10;12

Oh, that's wonderful.

That touches my heart.

00;57;10;12 - 00;57;12;13

I care about that, that field as well.

00;57;12;13 - 00;57;14;17

So I am so glad you're leaning into that.

00;57;14;17 - 00;57;18;17

And I'm excited to hear

that you're excited about that

00;57;18;17 - 00;57;19;11

and you're working on it.

00;57;19;11 - 00;57;22;00

So that's that's fantastic.

00;57;22;00 - 00;57;23;20

Well, Shirley, I've enjoyed this.

00;57;23;20 - 00;57;26;23

I so appreciate all the work that you do.

00;57;27;20 - 00;57;29;25

Thank you for your heart, for the world

00;57;30;24 - 00;57;31;18

and the way

00;57;31;18 - 00;57;34;19

you're invested in Christian education

around the globe.

00;57;34;19 - 00;57;36;08

It's making a big difference.

00;57;36;08 - 00;57;38;21

And you've inspired us today

with some wonderful stories.

00;57;38;21 - 00;57;41;21

So we are grateful for your time

and for your work.

00;57;42;04 - 00;57;44;23

But thanks for having me today.

00;57;44;23 - 00;57;48;13

This is work I love and I'm glad to share

00;57;48;16 - 00;57;51;16

at least some of it with everyone else.

00;57;51;20 - 00;57;53;06

Well, we appreciate it.

00;57;53;06 - 00;57;56;06

Shirley,

thank you so much for being with us.

00;57;58;04 - 00;57;59;16

Thanks for joining us.

00;57;59;16 - 00;58;02;29

If you've enjoyed today's podcast,

be sure to subscribe

00;58;02;29 - 00;58;05;28

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00;58;06;15 - 00;58;10;16

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00;58;10;28 - 00;58;15;06

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where we dig deeper into the topics.

00;58;15;06 - 00;58;19;09

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00;58;19;09 - 00;58;22;08

is supported by the Stephen

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00;58;22;12 - 00;58;27;04

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00;58;27;04 - 00;58;32;08

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00;58;32;27 - 00;58;37;05

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