In this episode, Dan talks to historian James Ungureanu about the origins of the “conflict thesis” between faith and science. In his important new book, Science, Religion, and the Protestant Tradition: Retracing the Origins of Conflict (University of Pittsburgh Press, 2019), James examines the intellectual and religious terrain of the late nineteenth century and especially John William Draper and Andrew Dickson White, two of the figures often credited with originating the conflict idea. James revises our understanding of this crucial episode, as well as discusses his own biography and his understanding of Christian scholarship.

We welcome suggestions and comments on this episode at

The UpWords Podcast is produced by Upper House. Music is by Micah Behr, audio engineering by Andy Johnson, graphic design by Madeline Ramsey.